www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Christians and Circumcision

Dear Father Deacon,


St.Paul proved, by his example with Timothy, that there are circumstances that do call for the circumcision of Jewish Christians, if for no other reason but to remain loyal to those symbols and symbolic acts that unite them to their ethnic brethren and the sacred history and traditions of the Hebrew Fathers and Elders of the First Faith.

Read the 16th chapter of Acts, if you desire. However, there probably isn't any need for you to
read it!

Salaam,

Abdur

PS-You might have mentioned it earlier, but in the 15th chapter of Acts, although the Apostles and Elders of the Council of Jerusalem forbade the forced circumcision of the gentile converts of the Way, it isn't stated in the text that circumcision is abrogated for Jewish followers of the Way.

I was once informed by a Jewish Christian that the issue of circumcision played a major role in separating the Ebionites and Nazareans from the much larger gentile church.

Salaam,

Abdur

[ 04-29-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. One God. Amen.

Ethiopian Orthodox Christians circumcise for tradition and not for religious purposes. In line with Paul's teaching, circumcision is replaced by baptism. The rules that applied to circumcision now apply to baptism. In the Old Testament women were unclean for 7 days plus could not come to the temple for an extra 33 when she bore a male child (total 40 days). When she bore a female child she was unclean for 2 weeks plus could not come to the temple for another 66 (total 80 days). It is for this reason that the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church baptizes boys on the 40th day of their birth and girls on the 80th. Children also receive a Christian name, to be used in Church and Prayer (i.e. when praying for someone using their Christian name) and a Mateb (cord) to wear around their neck as a symbol of the Orthodox Faith.

Circumcision is not done at the Church or with the participation of any Church authority. It is done, as in the States, in the hospital. However I was not sure how it was done in the country side (that has not hospitals) so I forwarded your question to somebody in Ethiopia via e-mail to find out if it is different in the rural areas. It turns out that in the rural areas children just go to a specialist (that's right a specialist in slicing foreskins) who conducts no ceremony and has no religious affiliation whatsoever.


The woman I asked also added this comment: “As for circumcision it is replaced by baptism gin [but] just because you guys look betam [very] nasty with that thing [foreskin], you get circumcised to be a little attractive…it is not a necessity.”

So it may be a good idea to have your son circumcised anyway

God Bless you and Congratulations

Xenia I guess that answers your question to :p

Aklie Semaet

[ 05-10-2002: Message edited by: Aklie Semaet ]

I cannot say a thing with regards to Byzantine Catholics but Orthodox Christians ought not be circumcised.

One example (and there are many)...

(An Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith, BOOK IV CHAPTER XXV, Concerning the Circumcision, by St John Damascene)

The Circumcision was given to Abraham before the law, after the blessings, after the promise, as a sign separating him and his offspring and his household from the Gentiles with whom he lived. And this is evident, for when the Israelites passed forty years alone by themselves in the desert, having no intercourse with any other race, all that were horn in the desert were uncircumcised: but when Joshua led them across Jordan, they were circumcised, and a second law of circumcision was instituted. For in Abraham's time the law of circumcision was given, and for the forty years in the desert it fell into abeyance. And again for the second time God gave the law of Circumcision to Joshua, after the crossing of Jordan, according as it is written in the book of Joshua, the son of Nun: At that time the Lord said unto Joshua, Make thee knives of stone from the sharp rock, and assemble and circumcise the sons of Israel a second time; and a little later: For the children of Israel walked forty and two years in the wilderness of Battaris, till all the people that were men of war, which came out of Egypt, were uncircumcised, because they obeyed not the voice of the Lord: unto whom the Lord sware that He would not shew them the goad land, which the Lord swore unto their fathers that He would give them, a land that floweth with milk and honey. And their children, whom He raised up in their stead, them Joshua circumcised: for they were uncircumcised, because they had not circumcised them by the way. So that the circumcision was a sign, dividing Israel from the Gentiles with whom they dwelt.

It was, moreover, a figure of baptism. For just as the circumcision does not cut off a useful member of the body but only a useless superfluity, so by the holy baptism we are circumcised from sin, and sin clearly is, so to speak, the superfluous part of desire and not useful desire. For it is quite impossible that any one should have no desire at all nor ever experience the taste of pleasure. But the useless part of pleasure, that is to say, useless desire and pleasure, it is this that is sin from which holy baptism circumcises us, giving us as a token the precious cross on the brow, not to divide us from the Gentiles (for all the nations received baptism and were sealed with the sign of the Cross), but to distinguish in each nation the faithful from the Faithless. Wherefore, when the truth is revealed, circumcision is a senseless figure and shade. So circumcision is now superfluous and contrary to holy baptism. For he who is circumcised is a debtor to do the whale law. Further, the Lord was circumcised that He might fulfil the law: and He fulfilled the whole law and observed the Sabbath that He might fulfil and establish the law. Moreover after He was baptized and the Holy Spirit had appeared to men, descending on Him in the form of a dove, from that time the spiritual service and conduct of life and the Kingdom of Heaven was preached.

In the Name of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit. One God. Amen.

Yes, but we have not thrown out all of the Law only that which has been fulfilled. We do not circumcise as part of the Law but as part of custom. The Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church should be looked at as Africans, who practiced Judaism and converted to Christianity. Jews who became Christian (like St. James) still practiced Jewish custom, but in a new light. Gentiles, who had no tradition of circumcision were not required to start one in order to become Christians. Jews who already had the custom were not made to stop to become Christian. The latter tradition is more relevant to the Ethiopian experience than the former.

May God Bless You All

Aklie Semaet

[ 05-10-2002: Message edited by: Aklie Semaet ]

Dear Aklie,

Selam!

Yes, you have hit the nail right on the head!

Roman Catholic missionaries in Ethiopia were shocked to find the practice of circumcision there.

(Just as Ethiopian Orthodox were shocked to see the RC's eat fish on Fridays, since fish is meat in the East!).

But this is part of the Judaic heritage of Ethiopia, a Judaic heritage that was also practiced by the Apostles's Jewish converts.

Paul never condemned the practice of circumcision as such, only its former meaning.

Let us remember that James, the first bishop of Jerusalem, was, in externals, virtually indistinguishable from any other pious Jew living in Jerusalem.

That is why the Jewish leaders made the mistake of asking him to speak to the crowds to condemn Jesus.

When James or Jacob really began to speak about faith in the Lord Jesus from the summit of the Temple, he was pushed off.

Alex

In the name of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit. One God. Amen.

Alex,

Yes, it is beyond time for this chapter of Christian history to be researched and written—when Jews became Jewish Christians and the influence that they had on the early Church. Also, without knowledge of the Jewish and Semitic heritage of our faith some of the practices in the Apostolic Churches do not make any sense (like having Liturgy itself or infant Baptism [i.e. modified infant circumcision]). Christ said to go preach to ALL nations, and it makes sense therefore that all of the Ancient Churches have characteristics peculiar to their own culture and history. The first people he preached to were of course Jews and he allowed them to keep their culture. He himself kept it. If he abolished circumcision then the Apostles would not have had confusion about it in the Book of Acts, they would have all agreed that the Lord declared that circumcision should cease. The fact that they were confused demonstrates that Jesus spread the New Covenant through the medium of Jewish culture and tradition, including celebrating Jewish feasts, weddings and Holy Days such as Passover.

Also, thank you for clearing up where this habit of eating fish came from. There are many Ethiopians that eat fish on fasting days. In fact in many restaurants in Ethiopia it is difficult to find fish, EXCEPT ON FASTING DAYS. In fact for many fasting means "time to eat fish' and while they eat hamburgers on Monday and Tuesday, Wednesday becomes the occasion to gobble a "fish burger.'

This behavior was allowed for some time until when the new Patriarch came in it was immediately announced that it was not ok to eat fish on fasting days. Many Ethiopians refuse to follow this "new' policy (actually a reconfirmation of the old policy) but the Church has said what it needs to on the matter.*

It makes sense that this practice could have develpoed by cultural interaction with Latins. Many habits such as having statues (as opposed to paintings) of Mary and Jesus (officially considered as engraved images by our Church and technically forbidden) are inside of Churches nowadays (many many elders complaining). Most of these statues, etc. are imported.

God Bless You

Aklie Semaet

*This description is valid only insofar as it describes the capital city. Smaller towns and rural district still adhere to the strictest traditional fasting diets.

[ 05-14-2002: Message edited by: Aklie Semaet ]

Here's my $0.02 (based on books I have been reading recently by Fr. Paul Tarazi):

Paul and James appear to have been at loggerheads regarding the continuing relevance of the Jewish Law in the Christian era -- when it comes to non-Jews. This is what led the party of James to interfere in what Paul (and Peter) were doing in Antioch -- *after* the Council of Jerusalem, interestingly. What Paul found offensive about the pro-circumcision party was that they were preaching this as a requirement for salvation for the Gentiles (see, eg, the letter to the Galatians) when, for Paul, submission to the Judaic law had no relevance for those who were not Jews. While Paul is very careful in his letters to not specifically name James, many scriptual scholars today identify these Judaising preachers -- who seem to have tried to penetrate every Pauline church -- with the church of Jerusalem headed by James, and see much of the written NT as the reaction of the Pauline churches against what was perceived as the Judaising element within the early Christian community. In the end, we know that Paul's vision of the Gospel won, and we believe that this was the work of the Holy Spirit. A good reference on this is "An Introduction to the New Testament, Volume 1: Paul and Mark" by Fr. Paul Nadim Tarazi, a professor at St. Vladimir's Seminary.

So, I agree that Paul saw no harm in circumcision as such, but saw great harm in performing cirumcision out of any religious sensibility ... Galatians is very strong in this regard.

Brendan

In the Name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, One God. Amen!

Selam Aklie!

In Ukraine in the 19th century, fish mongers tried to increase their sales by trying to get Orthodox Christians to eat fish as a "fast food" (no pun intended!).

St Theophilus of Kyiv was one of those who strongly opposed this and there is a story about the wife of a fish monger who was warned by Theophilus to stop selling fish to Christians on fast days or else something evil would befall their family. She actually drowned in the river Dnieper some weeks later. This story was used in sermons to warn against the use of fish on fast-days!

And if you think that fish-burgers on Wednesdays is a profanation, there are some Latin Dioceses in the South that have sanctioned the eating of muskrat meat on fast-days. This is because muskrats live in the water, just as fish do. That's all the explanation there is - this isn't a joke.

Since you are a true gift to us here, may I ask you some questions about the Ethiopian Church that I have yet to have found answers for?

Yes?

Ethiopians wear prayer shawls when in Church. Do they wear any kind of shirt with tassels with their clothing during the day?

Do Ethiopian Christians have Mezzuzot on the corners of their doorposts, as Jews do? Or something comparable? Do Ethiopians kiss the doorposts of their Churches when they enter?

What is the position of Alexander the Great in the Ethiopian tradition? Is he honoured as a prophet, as I've sometimes read?

Also, could you explain the tradition of the Ark that honours the relics of Saints in the Ethiopian Church.

Alex

[ 05-14-2002: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

Dear Brendan,

That truly is interesting!

What I find even more interesting is the history of the "Sect of the Judaizers" in Russia in the 14th and 15th centuries.

Judaic missionaries strongly proselytized among the aristocratic and church classes of Russia and succeeded in winning converts, including Orthodox bishops and priests.

These were covert converts whose Judaism was seen in their iconoclastic tendencies and others.

The Orthodox Church finally exposed and excommunicated this group of clandestine heretics within itself as the "Sekta Zhidovstvuyuschykh" or "Sect of the Judaizers."

For this reason, and to this day, the Slavic word "Zhid" to describe someone of the Jewish faith is considered a term of great offense in the Russian, Belarussian and Ukrainian languagues. It is not so considered in any other Slavic language.

Alex

In the Name of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit. One God, Amen.

Dear Brendan,

Here are some of the issues that I take with you posted contribution:

While Paul is very careful in his letters to not specifically name James, many scriptual scholars today identify these Judaising preachers -- who seem to have tried to penetrate every Pauline church -- with the church of Jerusalem headed by James

There is no Biblical evidence to support this notion. The Bible is actually quite clear of who were the “Juadising” preachers, it was the Pharisees who had converted to Christianity (Acts 15:5). When the Elders at Jerusalem, led by James, wrote the letter to Antioch (accompanied by two of the Jerusalem Church faithful who went with Paul and Barnabas) repudiating these "Judaisers' they also added that they, “gave no such commandment” to the men to demand Antioch Gentiles to be circumcised (Acts 15:24).

It is interesting to note that after this very conference Paul himself circumcised Timothy a mixed Jewish and Greek disciple. “Paul wanted to have him go on with him. And he took him and circumcised him because of the Jews who were in that region, for they all knew his father was a Greek.” (Acts 16:3).

Nevertheless some Pharisees falsely accused Paul of still teaching otherwise. So when he returned to Jerusalem the Council made an interesting decision, which I believe settles the whole matter:
“But they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying they ought not to circumcise their children nor walk according to the customs.” The council then told Paul to demonstrate that the accusations were false by demonstrating that he is a faithful Jew that does “walk orderly and keep the law.” He was told to undergo a purification ritual of seven days and an offering in the Jewish temple and Paul agreed and underwent it, only to be interrupted when a crowd of Pharisees recognized him and started to beat him (Acts 21:22-40). But the clearest statement on the policy of circumcision is verse 25 of the 21st Chapter of Acts: “But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written and decided that they should observe no such thing, except that they should keep themselves from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality.” Looking at Christianity, in its entirety and not just the parts relevant to Gentiles, chapter 21 of Acts starting with the 17th verse until the end of the chapter is the clearest overall statement.

Off course Paul is the darling of Gentile Christians, how could he not be? He was a Roman citizen and spoke Greek so much that in Acts it surprised the Jewish crowd to hear him speaking Aramaic.

Paul correctly shielded Gentile Christians from the undue and unjustified intrusions by arrogant or otherwise confused Jewish Christians.

In the end, we know that Paul's vision of the Gospel won, and we believe that this was the work of the Holy Spirit.

I do not quite understand the implication of this sentence. While Paul may have ended up more "popular' than James that does not make him better. Paul is no better than James is than James is better than Paul is. Paul was good for the Gentiles and James was good for the Jews. Only if one adopts a Eurocentric perspective that has the center of Christianity and Christian history centered on what happened in Europe can one be of the opinion that “Paul's vision” won over James. Paul's "version' can only be said to have "won' if by that it is meant that after the fall of Jerusalem the "imminent and immediate return of Christ' so widely adhered to at the time was exposed to be a miscalculated belief. Jerusalem Christians now had to contemplate separating the long-term reality of building a viable international Christian community from immediate Jewish political radicalism and independence from Rome (Paul seems not to have cared about the latter whereas James and other Jews did).

You need to keep the Gospel era in its historical context. After the defeat of the Jewish uprising in 71 AD the very general that led to the crushing of Jerusalem, Vespasian and his son Titus, were later to become the rulers of the Roman Empire. The attitude of the Roman ruling class in respect to the Jews changed drastically. Anti-Semitism became a trademark of European culture (this unfortunately did not escape some of the Fathers), Jew's in the Roman Empire started trying to out-Gentile the Gentiles. Gentile Christians bent over backwards trying to divorce their faith from its Jewish roots. By the time of the Middle Ages paintings depicting the life of Jesus would depict the “Jewish Mob” that condemned Christ in stereotypical Jewish manner. Christ and the Disciples, however, were portrayed as non-Jewish. I don't care what any one says; that is not “the work of the Holy Spirit.”

God Bless You

Aklie Semaet

[ 05-15-2002: Message edited by: Aklie Semaet ]

In the Name of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit. One God, Amen.


Selam Brother Alex,

“Musk-rat” fast food in the South? Lol. Please do not tell me you are referring to the South here in the States. Yes they do have problems with eating river-rat, opossum, armadillo and other variety of road kill but I am astonished by this one! Cizinec, you got some explaining to do! And I am glad to know we are not alone with the fish mongers. Where can I get a nice summary of this story of St Theophilus of Kyiv? I think it should be translated into Amharic and distributed to all the fish peddlers in Addis Ababa.

Yes, Ethiopians kiss the doorposts of the Church when they enter. Actually they kiss the gate when they enter the Church compound, the door when they enter the Church and finally after being inside the church they kneel down and kiss the entrance leading to the Altar.

The "prayer shawl' is actually in two versions. There is the thin one, usually worn with the complete Ethiopian cultural clothes, called netala and the thicker one, worn by itself called gabi. They are not simply prayer shawls as they are worn often as a jacket throughout the day. Thegabi is usually also worn at night to keep from being cold, sometimes is even used as a blanket. We are instructed that to enter the Church we should be wearing one of the two. We should also put it on at home while we pray; in this respect it is also the prayer shawl. However, as is usually the case, many MEN have a hard time following directions. Guys usually come to church without either the netala or the gabi and simply wear a jacket thinking, for some strange reason, that this is acceptable.

Normal lay Christians do not usually wear any tassels anytime during the day. However monks and priest have a waistband called zenar.

Alexander the great does not appear anywhere on our Calendar, does not have a day dedicated to him, I have never heard of him being canonized as a saint by the Church and there is no Church named after him anywhere in the country. If anything, Alexander the Great is just respected as a leader in antiquity. His name IS popularly given to Ethiopian boys, Alemayu = Alexander, but that is about all as far as I know. It is completely plausible that some Ethiopian Christians in areas of predominately Muslims or areas formerly Muslim and now converted to Christianity revere the great conqueror as a saint. Just as some Muslims in Christian areas revere the Virgin more than Muslims usually do.

As far as the tradition of the Saints and the Ark, or Tabot is concerned, each Ark has the name of God written on it as well as the name of the Saint, Angel, etc. that the Church is named after. So if the name of the Church is Gabriel then Gabriel's name is included on the Tabot. When the feast day of the Saint or Angel comes then everyone goes to that church by midday for an enormous ceremony wherein the Ark actually comes out, accompanied by Priestly dances and Music, and is marched in a circle around the Church three times. After this is over the Liturgy begins. Ethiopians kneel down to the Ark just as the Hebrews did. There is a symbolic link between Holy Mary and the Ark also.

I hope this clears up things

May God Bless You

Aklie Semaet

Selam Aklie,

You are a true bridge for us and great communicator of the vast spiritual riches of the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church!

I fell madly in love with Ethiopian Christianity when I viewed a program about it and saw the Ethiopian priests with their hand Crosses or "Al-Maskal."

I remember meeting my first Ethiopian priest at the home of my then Russian Orthodox employer who had invited a wide cross-section of representatives of local Catholic, Anglican and Orthodox Churches to attend the blessing of a newly-written icon of the Royal Martyrs of Russia.

I asked the priest if it was true that the Ethiopians venerate St Pontius Pilate. He smiled eagerly at me and said, "Yes - don't you?"

When we were standing in line for the Agape afterwards, Fr. Messale Ugghema asked a wonderful Russian lady ahead of him whether a certain food on the table was pork.

She said, "Not at all - it's ham."

Father was mesmerized for a moment, but then moved on without taking any . . .

God bless,

Alex

In the Name of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit. One God, Amen.

Selam Alex,

Is there not some RC tradition that had Pontius Pilate converting to Christianity before he died? I ask this because I know a Protestant Minister who did research on this question for a seminar and he found this tradition and surprised the all Protestant class room and professor when he presented.

The story about the ham/pork is funny and typical. I remember the same thing happened to me in Cuba. I asked if the fish they were serving was fried in lard or if there was pork in any of the food. They said no there was absolutely no pork anywhere in the food. So when I started cutting the fish I noticed some reddish meat mixed with the white of the fish. I asked what it was and the same person told me, “no problem eat, we always wrap up the ham over the fish before we fry it.” I ended up eating rice for the night and needless to say was a horrible way to spend a Caribbean vacation.

Oh by the way sometimes the waistband that I mentioned Monks wearing is replaced by a heavy chain. Monks are permanent vegans, they consume no meat or dairy products. On days that are official fast days then the monks only eat the equivalent of what we would call in North America Trail Mix: nuts, grains, etc.

P.S.
I have an aside for you monarchist sympathizers: Did you know that in January 1965 a Pan-pre-Chalcedon conference was attended by the heads of each of the 5 Oriental Churches? In attendance were His Holiness Abuna Kyrillos VI, Pope of Alexandria; His Holiness Moran Mar Ignatius Yacob III, Patriarch of Antioch and All East; His Holiness Vasken I, Catholicos of All Armenians; His Holiness Abuna Baselios, Patriarch of Ethiopia; His Holiness Moran Mar Baselius Augon I, Catholicos of East and Malabar Metropolitan. The conference declared Ethiopian Emperor, Halie Selassie I the “Defender of the Faith.”

God Be With You

Aklie Semaet

Selam Aklie,

So that is how they respected your Mosaic fast requirements in Cuba? The pigs . . . .

With respect to our St Pontius Pilate, the East had a much more positive view of him than the West.

A later tradition in the West described him as being disturbed in mind for the remainder of his days which he ended by committing suicide.

But the much earlier Eastern, Coptic tradition proclaimed his repentance and conversion to Christ.

We know from Origen that Pilate wrote a letter to Tiberius Caesar to explain the events of the Crucifixion. We also know he was recalled to Rome to appear before the Emperor.

His wife, St Claudia Procla, is a saint in the Byzantine Church.

The tradition has it, in the letter of Pilate to Herod, that Pilate was soon summoned to see the Risen Christ and that he put on sackcloth to do so.

He saw Christ in a field preaching to about 500 people and that when Christ approached him, he fell down, feeling the earth move beneath him.

Christ put His hands on him and Pilate remarked he could see the marks of the nails. Christ then told him, "Blessed are you for all generations for in your administration was fulfilled all the prophecies concerning the Son of Man."

Pilate became a Christian and when he was before Caesar, was condemned to death for not using Christ's miraculous powers to further the interests of the Roman empire.

Claudia saw an angel take the head of Pilate as it was cut off and she herself died of joy that very moment.

I like to think that the mention of Pilate' name in the Nicene Creed is our Church's way of relating to that beautiful tradition.

As for Haile Selassie, I once read an Ethiopian priest speak of his veneration as a saint and that miraculous conversions had taken place through his intercession.

Alex

[ 05-17-2002: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]