www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Antimensium for sale on eBay

Monk Silouan,

I think you're confusing him with someone else - or, at least putting this antimension into the wrong time frame. Vladyka Ivan resigned from his position as Auxiliary of Philadelphia in 1945 and apparently did not function in any episcopal capacity thereafter, until 1953; it was then that he was assigned to Curial responsibilities. Vladyka Andrei, of blessed memory, was elevated to the episcopacy 5 years afterward and immediately assigned to Curial responsibilities. Their time in Rome was contemporaneous for the next 15 years, until Vladyka Ivan reposed, in 1971 I believe. This antimension was not consecrated until 1966, well after WWII and Korea and probably before there was any need for same in VietNam; though it certainly could still have been consecrated for peace-time military chaplaincy use.

Many years,

Neil, who notes that, with 5 hrs remaining, the bid is up to $105 and reserve is not yet met (failure to meet the reserve - which I am guessing is set high enough that it will discourage any who would "save" it - will cause it not to sell on e-bay, but won't protect it from being sold in some other forum, including the local antique store or flea market)

Neil,

the detail of the signature appears to read "+Joannes AE.-AB." I can see Arch-Episcopus, but why would the Archbishop sign his name in Latin and then use an English abbreviation???? Do you know what position he had in the Curia.

I do recall hearing that bishops involved with the Russicum consecrated and provided antimensia mainly to Latin priests for their private, personal use. The funds collected for the antimensia where used to support the Russicum. If that is true perhaps this is one of them?

This is indeed a terrible and outrageous sacrilege. The Church teaches us to treat the consecrated altar and the holy relics of martyrs with the greatest respect and reverence. Selling them commercially is despicable - and stricly speaking is a form of theft, since an anitmension is issued either to a parish or to a priest, but remains the property of the issuing authority and can be withdrawn.
As to the practical problem, I can't make up my mind: should devout people use money to ransom the antimension and then turn it in to the appropriate hierarch? Or would this be compounding the felony, and encouraging the simoniacs to acquire such "mercahndise" and offer it for sale? One could take the view that the antimension loses its conscration the moment it is touched by anyone not in Major Orders - but can one quite say that about the holy relics? However, any moral theologian will tell us that trafficking in the holy relics is a sin.
So I don't honestly know what ought to be done. At least itinerant RC clergy are no longer asking for antimension in lieu of a portable altar stone, becuase they don't use either one, so this sort of thing will not go on for too much longer.
Another alternative: an antimension may properly be displayed in an ecclesiastical musuem, safegaurding, of course, the antimension in such a way (under glass, preferably as to ensure that it is not touched but can be read, since an antimension is sometimes important in the history of the Church) and that the antimension is in no danger of dust or dirt. That might be an appropriate way to treat an antimension which has been subjected to this double sacrilege. What do others think?

Incognitus

Incognitus,

the CCEO (canon 888) and the CIC (1190), forbid the sale of relics, but does not forbid the purchase of same. I'd imagine the law makes a distinction so that if relics do fall into the hands of a pawnbroker or someone else who does not show proper respect for the relics they may be redeemed without the buyer incurring an ecclesiastical penalty. This seems to happen when the estates of clergy are being settled. In this case, perhaps the proper authority should take care that no relics or other sacred objects fall into the wrong hands. The settling of any estates are certainly sensitive times. If relics are part of the estate and the heirs will not part with the relics without some sort of compensation, it is far better that the ecclesiastical authorities make the purchase lest the relics find their way into a place such as a pawnshop where they might have a greater chance of falling into the hands of one who would desecrate the relics.

With the handwriting it is hard to tell whether the signature is Ioann" or Joannes. It most clearly though has AE.-AB.

Yes, with my glasses on, it is AE.-AB; I can't come up with a good explanation for why he would have written both. I don't know what post he held in the Curia but am pming Charles Bransom to see if he can unearth any info from his archives.

I did a search on Vladyka Ivan; other than his episcopal lineage, from David Cheney's site, the only other on-line info was that his name appears on 13 pages of "Unholy Trinity", a 1992 book about Vatican-Nazi-Soviet connections during WWII and the immediately post-WWII era. Among those with whom his name is connected on the pages (but in what way, I don't know) are Klaus Barbie and Giovanni Montini.

Interestingly, there is an 8 year gap (Aug 1945-May 1953) between his resignation as Auxiliary of Philadelphia and his assumption of curial duties. I haven't been able to find any indication of what he did during that period.

The antimension did not sell. High bid was $163 and the reserve was not met.

Many years,

Neil

Good morning!

Thanks for the PM Neil.

Archbishop Ivan was appointed apostolic visitor for Ukrainian Catholics in western Europe on July 28, 1945, retaining the titular see of Cadi. He was promoted to the titular archiepiscopal see of Leucas (Leucade is the Italian version) on April 27, 1953. His appointment as apostolic visitor ended his tenure as auxiliary of Philadelphia.

As for the initial AE-AB: AE is probably Latin, but I question if AB should be translated as archbishop. I cannot see him using Latin and English abbreviations. I will have to give AB some more thought.

Peace,

Charles

Father Deacon John's canonical point is, I think, valid.
Sorry to be short, but I've just been summoned to a meal!

Incognitus

Glory to Jesus Christ !

This issue has come up several times before.

The argument of the antimension being a sanctified anointed altar will not get you very far with eBay.

However, eBay has a policy of not allowing "Human Parts and Remains" to be listed:
"Humans, the human body or any human body parts may not be listed on eBay. Examples of prohibited items include, but are not limited to: organs, bone, blood, waste, sperm, and eggs. You may not include such items as a gift, prize or giveaway in connection with an item listed on eBay. Items that contain human hair (e.g., lockets) as well as skulls and skeletons that are used for educational purposes may be listed on eBay".

Since the relic in the antimesion falls in this category, you could contact eBay immediately and insist that this item be removed.

Unfortunately, eBay in the past has been unresponsive to enforcing their own stated policies. Still, we should continue to insist they follow their policies when listing antimensions for sale.

Deacon El

I remember a few years ago, I saw some sort of communication from the Vatican that ended the practice of granting relics to individuals. Before that time, you could write the particular office in Rome responsible for relics, and ask for one if you had sufficient reason for asking. I think the main reason was that it was impossible to safeguard the relics if they were owned by individuals. Please let me know if that policy has been changed.

I find it amazing how many holy objects are available for sale as well (not just on E-bay). Last month, while shopping in Atlanta, my husband and I visited an antique shop just for religious collectibles.

While talking to the owner, I found out that all of the items in the store are "rescues". One holy item is given as a gift and treasured by the church that it is given to. The church then dissolves and the item winds up on a shelf in her home. She absolutely hates to charge money for these items but she needs money to be able to rescue more items.

My husband made an interesting comment though. He said in many times during the persecution of the church, the laity took sacred items into their home for care and safekeeping.

Some food for thought.

Gina

Hi,
Just a note to let those interested know, that through a "second chance email" from the seller I did rescue this Antimensium. This is the second I have rescued from eBay (the first containing an ex ossibus relic of St.Andrew, first Apostle). Please take some solace in the fact that these relics will be venerated properly and NEVER sold again. After preservation framing you can find them at Our Lady of Mt. Carmel Latin Rite Catholic Church (FSSP) in Denver Colorado. God Bless, Robert

Dear Tridentine, you may want to notify Fr. Chrysostom Frank, the Russian Catholic priest in Denver at St. Elizabeth's of its existence as well.

This is indeed a great shame. Clergy are supposed to ensure that they have a Will and that they clearly make proper arrangements for any vestments and other vessels of the altar. The diocesan constitutions brought out by bishop George of Van Nuys had a special section reminding the clergy of their obligation to prevent things like this happening and suggesting that they leave these things in their Will to a monastery.

Tridentine Catholic-

Thank you!!