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Dear Anastasios,

Good for you!

If I wasn't so old, I'd think about applying to St Vlad's myself . . .

Alex

I'd just like to clarify my original thoughts, because it seems that they were taken out of context and an important aspect was overlooked:

Excerpt from my original post:

"Cassocks certainly have their place in church and church-related ministry . . . "

This was intended to include but not be limited to: (naturally) all liturgical services, public or private, conducted in a church, chapel or another location such as a shrine, monastery, public oratory, private home, pilgrimage site, cemetery, etc. as well as at religious or municipal gatherings when the nature of the event warrants it.

Other times when a priest or cleric is performing aspects of his ministry where a cassock would be appropriate are also intended in the above statement. These would include but are not limited to, the blessing of homes, processions, prayers and/or blessings given at other occasions or gatherings, formal dinners or banquets, especially in the presence of the bishop, visitation of a seminary, monastery, shrine or similar sacred place and the like.

For apostolates such as hospital ministry, visitation of the sick, marriage preparation, counseling, reception of guests in the parish church, rectory or office, the particular setting of the event and/or policy of the institution involved should be considered. Also important to evaluate would be the particular cleric's presence at an event hosted by another religious or secular organization, where in certain instances, that group's level of comfort and customary practice should be taken into account, out of respect.

I mention these specifics because two of the responses to my comments seem to take them in a manner opposite to what they were intended to convey and rather, refer to those occasions when it is the normal practice, almost universally in the Greek Catholic and Orthodox churches, for a cleric to wear a cassock or riassa.

Anastasios: "I have been at pilgrimages when there are a group of priests together, some in Roman collar and others in cassocks."

Joe T: "When I wear my blacks during liturgy, I have gotten more newcomers approach me afterwards to ask questions and to talk."

I too wear my cassock in and around the church and before and after the Divine Liturgy or other services. Certainly pilgrimages and the Divine Liturgy are times when 99.9 per cent of our priests would wear one automatically. At least at pilgrimages and liturgies I have attended, our clergy are always in a cassock. It is true that in contemporary Roman Catholic practice, priests often do make use of the clerical shirt and collar when attending such functions described, and that is their prerogative, but again, our practice has always been to wear a cassock or riassa for such occasions.

One more reflection: Joe T, I would hardly consider a priest in a clerical collar, visiting a hospital or going to the bank in "regular" clothes, or a nun shopping at K-mart in a pant suit to be either a playboy or a barhopper. I hope that you do not consider priests out of the cassock or nuns without the habit, in most any situation, to automatically set a bad example for the public or appear morally lacking. That was a surprising commentary and apparent assumption. If I've misinterpreted what you meant, I do apologize, but it just sounded unusual, even for the most zealous.

Joe T: "Would you approach Fr. Joe Playboy or Sr. Jane Barhopper with personal and spiritual issues? Just wondering."

I hope that my intentions and thoughts are now clarified. Finally, I certainly do not expect my own estimations to set the norm for all priests and religious. Each is an individual and entitled to their own good judgment and level of comfortability in such matters. Alex, thank you for your words of confidence.

God bless you all.

Fr. Joe

Fr. Joe,

I was just being extreme. Take it as that. And, of course, I would not think less of a priest or nun out of habit. That wasn't my point. Even stockbrokers wear Bermuda shorts at times! Don't think of me as so naive.

And did I say that about priests wearing clerical collars? I think you are reading too much into the point I was trying to make. I believe someone else mentioned clerical collars versus riazza. Whether one wears one or the other is not my argument.

I attended a seminary once that tried with all pains to rid of anything of religious garb. They hassled those who desired such and didn't think much of having parties until 3:00 AM with their girlfriends. (It was quite difficult trying to study Hume or Kant while listening to the Doors singing "Touch Me, Baby" for the umpteenth time). Personally, I didn't care. It wasn't my seminary to worry about. My goal was to graduate.

Now, if I met a stockbroker that looked like a bum, then I certainly would not buy stocks or bonds from him for obvious reasons. This is more in line with the argument I was trying to make.

Joe

Fr Joe,

Thanks for clarifying. I wish it *were* our custom to wear cassock or riassa to pilgrimages as you said you have experienced, because my (somewhat limited) experience has been the opposite in that at the 10 or so functions I have been to in the past 5 years, all the priests in the groups I was referring to were in Roman collars IN THE CHURCH, except 2 or 3. Even one of our own esteemed bishops at the March for Life switches into Roman collar and business suit as soon as he gets done with the concelebrated Mass, swiches back to cassock for Great Compline, and then when done switches back into business suit and walks around the Church in business suit.

As for the oft-repeated "priest/nun at KMart" issue. I would never tell a priest to wear a cassock in KMart but I am sure glad that I know priests who do. Do you stop being a priest at KMart? Now I know obviously that a Roman collar ID's you as a priest but some of our priests don't even wear that, and then there is an identity issue: the people wonder, is he Roman Catholic, Orthodox, Methodist?? Cassocks make life simpler. But again I repeat I would never judge a priest on this; let his conscience be his guide. I have noted that I have seen people brought into the parish because they saw a priest in a cassock and asked him what that was all about, which led to an invite.

In Christ,

anastasios

Alex:

If the Lord calls you to go to St. Vladimir's, what are you waiting for?

In three years, you'll still be three years older than you are now. The only difference might be that three years from now you will have "(gone) and sold all tht you owned and given it to the poor and come and follow(ed) Me."

Or you could be wondering in three years "what if?"

I read a story once of a man who had gone into the seminary and become a Latin priest after his wife died and it seems to me he was ordained when he was over 80. Then there is the seminarian who was ordained in this country with the Pope's special permission who was dying of cancer and who--I believe--never lived to serve his first Liturgy. If the call is there, answer it.

BOB

Dear Bob,

God bless you!

But, like Cantor Joe Thur, I was just being extreme .

I have a lousy voice and wouldn't pass the grade for ordination as a sexton, much less a cantor.

But St Vladimir's is definitely an excellent choice for any Orthodox or Eastern Catholic seminarian.

Actually, my first choice would be St Andrew's Ukrainian Orthodox seminary in Winnipeg.

They wear cassocks ALL the time!

Have a holy Lent!

Alex

Bless me a sinner, Father Joseph!

Just being in your cybernet presence is a gift of Grace for me!

Alex

Alex:

You can't have as bad a voice as I have. I once had the distinction of having a priest meet me at the door of the church. Seems the bishop was present that Sunday and he wanted me to do him a big favor: skip singing that Sunday! He said I hit some really sour notes when I ran out of breath and he didn't want me to grate on the bishop's ear. He offered me the chance to lip sync, though.

I've since learned to do better, but you get the picture.

BOB

Anastasios,

What other seminaries have you been to besides St. Vlads that wear their cassocks in class? I've been to a number of seminaries and don't know of one. Just wondering.

Joe

Dear Bob,

One (mitred) Archpriest once did tell me that if Moses had heard my voice, there would have been another commandment . . .

There is actually a canon in the Rudder somewhere (sorry I don't remember exactly where, but could look it up if you didn't believe me )where the Church forbids reception of priestly candidates on the basis of their good voice (!).

Whichever Holy Father that came up with that one must have had the gift of clairvoyance and clearly foresaw my case (I can't speak for you, I haven't heard you sing ).

Alex

Dear Cantor Joe,

I told you - St Andrew's Ukrainian Orthodox Seminary in Winnipeg. The home of Father Michael Winn!

Alex

Alex is, of course, correct. The early church considered the inability to sing a diriment impediment to ordination to the Diaconate. But then again, that was a big part of being a deacon. Today, I'm not so sure it's as much of a big deal -- although the one and only time I was tossed out of church (RC) as a kid was when the priest butchered the Latin Prefatium. I couldn't control myself and started laughing -- and the more I tried to stifle, the worse it got. And then appeared: Sister Anacletus. I was dead meat.

Today, I think the inability to balance a checkbook, or a styptic pencil personality should be diriment impediments.

Blessings!

I have seen some pictures from the old days of St. Vlad's with seminarians in class wearing cassocks. However, sometimes such pictures were staged for show.

I believe at Jodanville Seminary the students wear cassocks in class.

Don't know about elsewhere!

In Christ,

anastasios

Anastasios, Anastasios,

Are you and Joe Thur ignoring me on purpose?

I told you about the Ukrainian Orthodox seminary in Winnipeg . . .

(I read the article you sent me right away, just because it was YOU who had sent it . . .sniff . . .).

Alex

Alex,

Nobody is ignoring the great Orthodox Catholic! Why would we do that?

My question was personally directed at Anastasios, our Byzantine Catholic seminarian at St. Vlads.

My question was:

"What other seminaries have you been to besides St. Vlads that wear their cassocks in class?"

Joe