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I attended vespers at an EC church today for the first time and there were only 3 of us there. When I go to great vespers at an Orthodox church, there are usually about 30 or people including whole families. I thought the eastern tradition was to attend vespers the night before if you intended to receive communion?

Do most EC parishes have vespers and do most ECs attend vespers?

[quote]Do most EC parishes have vespers and do most ECs attend vespers?[quote]

In short: no and no. The Latins do not celebrate Vespers, and in turn most EC parishes do not either. However, as more parishes seek to recover our tradition, more a celebrating (unfortunately, the abberation of vigil Liturgies will get in the way of this restoration). Some parishes go half and half-half Vespers (until the Prokeimenon) and half Divine Liturgy (from the Trisagion forward), modelling this on the sole occurance of Vespers+Divine Liturgy of St John Chrysostom on 25 March (though, if a patronal feast of a parish falls during the Great Fast this arrangement is also followed).

In all, if one sees more than 5-10% of a parish at a service other than Divine Liturgy (and this includes Orthodox parishes, at least in my experience), that is doing pretty good. One will see lower turnouts at non-DL services in Eastern Catholic churches since it is probably new for them, or because of a mindset that one cannot get Communion, the service is not worth attending.

Anyway, our Lord said "Whenever two or three are gathered in my Name..." It is important that the service was held, and someone was there, though not many were. (May i ask, where did you go?)

In Christ,
Adam

Annunication in suburban Chicago.

Patience.

We're getting there. We used to not do Vespers at all.

Keep coming!

I have been there once, for their parish pilgrimage. Even then, the turnout at Vespers was pretty thin (less than a dozen all told). One must also remember that there are many parishes (Annunciation is one of them) where folks have to drive a consdierable amount of time (i recall a lot that drove an hour or more, and there is or was a family that came in from Des Moines, and few, in any families live in the neighborhood). That has a big impact on numbers at a service.

In Christ,
Adam

Some old world Orthodox clergy have been known to require attendance at Vespers, Matins, and Confession before granting Communion. As far as I know, the prevailing attitude in the U.S. is not to create conditions for receiving communion as mentioned above.

In the Phoenix area, both EC and EO parishes have relatively light attendance at Vespers (or Vigil, depending on how Matins is or is not celebrated), unless it is tied to some other activity- whether it be Vesperal Liturgy, an ethnic festival, etc.

The last 2 Saturdays our parish has had higher attendance at Vespers, because there were other events- last week a banquet after, this week a seminar by Fr. Jack Custer before.

Sorry but I probably won't be able to make it for Vespers again. I live in north Chicago so it's quite a 'schlep' for me. I only made it saturday because I had an errand out that way.

I suppose I'll keep going to the local Orthodox church for vespers.

At my church (OCA) in the Chicago burbs there are always less than 10 people at Saturday night Vespers, and that number includes Matushka and our priest.


Annunciation is such a beautiful church, the iconography is awe inspiring and it definitely creates an atmosphere which invites people to worship and to pray. It is definitely near the top on my list of the most beautiful churches I have visited.

I would like to pay another visit out there when Fr. Tom finishes with the iiconography, if he hasn't done so already.

Of course Vespers and Matins are simply corporate versions of evening and morning prayer, something that we should all strive toward privately. Some pray "better" privately, some pray "better" in a corporate setting where clergy and singers provide a structure and prayers & hymns.

The Church offers a public corporate model, but has never insisted on attendance, although a bishop may insist that his clergy offer that model. When the people see their clergy praying, they are more likely to accept and implement the idea that prayer is important as part of our pursuit of God's love, wisdom, righteousness, mercy, etc.

Also, some clergy, in their vanity, (I include myself as part of the minor clergy) are more likely to pray if people are watching. As a good confessor once said, we sometimes work out our salvation through our weaknesses. The Apostle Paul was saying something similar.

The Church has insisted on some reasonable level of participation in the offeratory services - the Divine Liturgy or Mass. For those who are not sick (incl. of the very old) or with a medical condition, travelling, or have some "difficult business" (which could be Sunday morning employment), the canons have set three consecutive absences as grounds for expulsion, obviously pending repentance and readmittance to communion. This is a strict rule, but one that allows us to say that everyone who can, should attend AT LEAST once a month. The more, the better.

I do know presbyters who, after witnessing a year of non-attendance by a parishioner despite having appealed to the parishioner, will deny them the eucharist pending a repentance (formal or informal) for their laxity or some acceptable explanation.

We hold a Reader's Vespers (the priest lives far away) at the primary Orthodox Church that I attend and average 5 people per Saturday, but we don't count and we're not concerned, for all of the reasons stated above.

We start our abbreviated Matins approx. 15 minutes before the commencement of the Divine Liturgy.

Both of these services are preparatory for the liturgy and help set, at a minimum, the clergy and singers in the proper frame of mind.

I think that it is important to have these services but not important to worry about why there aren't more attendees. The faith and the thirst to seek the Lord, in its full depth, is not grasped in a short time. And also, it is grasped in various ways, some public some private.

In Christ,
Andrew