www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Question # 3 on New Translation of Liturgy

"Subdeacon Randolph,

One of the goals was to keep the Liturgy at around an hour. I don't think it was the only consideration, but it certainly has to be taken into account, for if one does not people start leaving at the hour point anyways. Perhaps we should be glad people are willing to give any hour when many others give nothing at all or opt for the Latin parish down the street where they only have to give 45 minutes.

Fr. Deacon Lance "

In the "Questions on the New Translation #1" thread, Fr. Lance wrote the above paragraph. While I am not questioning the scholarship or knowledge of ANYONE on the commission that produced the new translation and changes to the Liturgy, for they are eminently more knowledgable than I, I would still pose the following two questions:

1) If one of the goals of the commission was to keep the Liturgy at about an hour, what were some of the venues proposed to do this?

2) And I remember reading somewhere (from Rome I believe)--and unfortunately cannot come up with the source now, that translations and revisions to the Liturgy should take into consideration the practice of the parallel Orthodox Churches. How much was this done by the commission?

I am profoundly indebted to the commission for correcting erroneously, or purposefully (to make us different from the Orthodox) mistranslated texts, AND restoring portions long ago lost or dropped, AND removing accretions (latinizations) that should have never been interpolated into the Liturgy. I still take issue with some of the choices made. I find it impossible to think that with changes such as the audible recitation of many prayers that were formerly silent or dropping verses of the antiphons, that without reducing the homily or "speed singing" throughout, it would be impossible to do the Liturgy well in an hour. But that's just my opinion.

Well isn't that nice, we're going to guarantee our parishioners that they will be in church no more than an hour. How do we do that? Easy! Delete antiphons and litanies, shorten prayers and speed up the responses. Frankly, what Pittsburgh proposes [or has alrady instituted] is outrageous.
What would St. John Chrysostom say about shortening the Liturgy so that Byzantine Catholics can be out of church in 60 minutes or less.
Pittsburgh is in trouble.

Dear John K:

You may want to look over the article by Fr. Schmemann that I linked, to understand the connection between the new liturgy and ideas within Orthodoxy.
http://www.jacwell.org/Supplements/liturgical_practices.htm

Wicked spin that you put on Fr. Deacon Lance's post.

We, and many Orthodox in America, just do not have the culture, described by Photius, of just popping in for however long during the course of long (6 hr) Sunday service. If our service was structured that way what would happen? So we like most churches make some abbreviations. Even those who resolutely claim to take all the antiphon verses typically do not. What informs these abbreviations?

I will not tut-tut the very idea of a target time. Life is complicated for many people, and having a good idea of approximatley when a service will conclude is helpful. An attitude of "when it's done" is really disrespectful.

I have been to a Divine Liturgy in an OCA parish celebrated "according to the book" with no abbreviations and all the little litanies, antiphons, litany of the catechumens, etc. that took place in 50 minutes... maybe it was 55 minutes... in any case, it was definately under an hour. It was on a weekday with only a few communicants and no sermon, but it was still rather brief. Maintaining the "full order" still doesn't stop priests and singers from doing things in an hour!

Dave

I hazzard a guess that the antiphons were abbreviated in the customary way(not full psalms, no verses betwee the lines of the beatitudes). Was the anaphora taken silently? It is not uncommon to take it aloud in the OCA, I think. Were some litanies (little cateechumens) sung straight-through with petitions and responses sung together (a custom that I also think is common)? Their Obikhod is quicker than our prostopinije (each Lord have mercy, for example, is ~ half as long). Did the "book" include a Psalm 33 before the dismissal? With these abbreviations/contraction, no sermon, a brief fraction, and the unelaborated singing - easily within an hour. Even with a sermon, numerous communicants with a long fraction, anaphora aloud, psalm 33, it's still ~75 minutes for the liturgy.

CHRIST IS RISEN! There's nothing unusual about a weekday Divine Liturgy sung with moderate chant (such as the standard prostoie often used in Russian churches) and a small number of communicants lasting about an hour, especially if there is no sermon. It can be quite edifying. On Sunday and on feast days one naturally wants rather more in the way of music, communicants, sermon and an atmosphere which reflects the lack of such time pressure.
Anyone who thinks that Catholics did not come from a culture where people might arrive late and/or leave early is, ah, blessed with a selective memory. Those who can remember the bygone days can also remember that zipping out before the Last Gospel (usually so as to get one's car out of the parking lot before the rush) seemed almost an ancient and venerable tradition. Check any catechism of that period for the rules about just how late you could be and still fulfill the "obligation".

Incognitus

If one calculates the time between the priest's lifting the veil from the chalice to prepare the gifts and zipping out before the reading of the Last Gospel, one has a time quite less than an hour. So in former days one could basically forego the "Mass of the Catechumens" and still fulfill the obligation.

Times wise we've never had the Sunday Divine Liturgy under an hour. We begin the Third Hour at 9:45 AM and the Divine Liturgy of St John Chrysostom ends around 11:10. When the Divine Liturgy of St Basil is celebrated with the Typical Psalms and Beatitudes on the Sundays of the Great Fast, we begin the Third Hour at 9:45 and end around 11:20-11:25.

I am confused about this one hour liturgy bit. Was one of the goals of our hierarchs to come up with a liturgy that can be done in one hour? If so, this would be sad. Please tell me that this is not so.

- - -

I remember some pastors who used to fly threw the liturgy on Sunday in forty-minutes or less. They thought they were being quite impressive.

When I was still dating my wife, I got a new pastor. On his first day on the job, he flew thru the liturgy like wild fire. This priest also scolded the cantors during his sermon for singing too slow. Didn't even get to meet the guy yet and I and others were getting chewed out in public. My wife scolded my new pastor for flying throught the liturgy as if there was a fire. She asked me if we could go to another Byzantine Catholic parish where it was more prayerful. So, we did. She was/is Latin Catholic and was used to liturgies longer than one hour.

The dedicated servants and handmaids of the Lord will stay as long as it takes. No less. If we are now catering to the quicky-mass crowd who has other things on their mind (golf, sports, suntanning), then we are doomed.

Joe

First let's differentiate between dropping by for a portion of a six hour set of services on the one hand, and arriving a little late for the liturgy on the other. My memory is that families with a bunch of kids (like mine) occasionally had some mishaps that led to a late arrival. But this was rare and always an accident of circumstance. I was well aware of the practice of cutting out after communion among the Latins, but never saw it in a BC church. (Even the crowd who would not set foot in church, but stood outside the whole time did not leave early. )

I remember arriving home a litttle later than usual because of a panachida (yes on a Sunday ). My Latin friends thouight it odd that people would stay. I thought them I thought it would be scandalous in our parish if anyone walked out; my dad corrected me: so rare would such an action be that it would simply be assumed that there was an emergency, such as sickness, that motivated it. My long-term memory is still quite good, and certainly the memories are blessed.

I should have been more specific. When I said "according to the book" I meant the OCA Divine Liturgy book, so yes, the antiphons were abbreviated and there was no Psalm 33; also, all the prayers (Anaphora included) were done silently, and it was sung in brisk Obikhod. My point was that even those who serve without cutting litanies and such (even though the antiphons are abbreviated) can find ways to make a short Divine Liturgy.

Dave

I've been hollered at for going too fast. And the priest (Orthodox, btw) did not wait for the sermon, but shouted his direction during the hymn. Of course it would be preferable that a priest who feels so strongly would give his ideas on tempo in advance.

This is a matter of taste, and is moot. Some aim for contemplative dynamics, others shout joyfully. Some chant slowly with great deliberation, others conversationally. Both tendencies can be exaggerated. Not just wild fire, but also imagine William Shatner chanting psalm 40.

Judas is the patron saint of cutters in both traditions.

Joe

For the Divine Liturgy, everyone stays to kiss the Cross and greet the priest, but at most other services, people frequently leave early..

Photius

Photius,

Kissing of the cross after a regular Divine Liturgy was not normal at any BC parish of either Passaic Eparchy or Pittburgh Archeparcy I regularly attended during my time as BC. Has that changed?

Tony