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Glory to Jesus Christ!

What is the true meaning this dogma of the Catholic Church ? This dogma has been reaffirmed more than once or even twice, has it not ?

Traditionalists point to Pope Eugene IV's (correct me if I'm wrong about the pope) pronouncement of the dogma in which he proclaimed something to the effect that even though Christians my they shed their blood for Christ, if they are not in communion with the Roman Pontiff they will be condemned.

He addressed his condemnation in particular to heretics and schismatics. Was this "schismatics" part a not-so-subtle reference to the Orthodox Church ? I know our Lord gave the authority to bind and to loose to His Apostles and believe he gave this authority first and foremost the the Prince of the Apostles, Saint Peter. However, if the Great Schism occurred in no small part due to what the Orthodox in good faith saw as heretical or near-heretical teachings by the Roman hierarchy, how could such an anathema be binding.

I thought when the Holy Father pronounces a dogma, it is to be taken as "de fide", but as much as a traditionalist as I am myself, I have a hard time believing the many saints of Orthodoxy are condemned eternally because they reject the Petrine primacy.

This has caused me plenty of concern, inasmuch as both of my parents died outside the Faith. Besides that, as much as I dearly love my Catholic Faith, I also love and am drawn to Orthodoxy.

Glory to Him Forever !

Sam

Hi,

This taching has never been defined as dogma, although the Church still affirms it and with the current understanding, she most probably will continue to affirm it in the future.

For an in-depth discussion about what this actually means, you can check the articles of the Catechism of the Catholic Church that explain the doctrine about the Church.

This teaching was also re-visited in "Dominus Iesus", a more recent doctrinal document on Christ, Church and Salvation issued by the Vatican.

In a nut-shell, "Outside the Church there is no salvation" means:

All of the saved are members of the One True Church, and their Salvation is granted by the One Sacrifice of Christ on the Cross and His Glorious Resurrection, through the means entrusted to the One True Church for this purpose.

Does it mean that membership to a particular Church during your earthly life is what saves you? No, it doesn't. Salvation is a gift of God, and He gives it freely to whom He wishes.

Does it mean that membership to a particular Church during your earthly life is an essential requisite for your salvation? No, it doesn't. Members of other Christian denominations, and even non-Christians may still attain salvation, but if they do, they are saved by Christ through the means of grace entrusted to the Church.

Besides, the Catechism teaches that all human beings on this earth have a relationship, in one degree or another, with the Catholic Church and therefore, nobody while still living, can be *absolutely* outside the Church, and therefore, hope of salvation is never to be considered absolutely closed to anyone still on the journey.

Ah, that. Well, to be quite honest there is disagreement about the precise nature of this proclamation.

Since it was done at the end of a VERY short document indented to deal with the temporal powers of the Pope being challenged by the French King, some are of the opinion that the Pope was not issuing a dogmatic declaration, but rather an opinion on temporary power and temporary subjection to the temporary authority of the Holy See.

In other words, the Pope was threatening the King of France with eternal damnation unless the King acknowledge himself as one of the many vassals of the Pope and behaved as such.

If this interpretation is true, then the statement cannot be interpreted as dogmatic, not even as doctrinal at all, and certainly not infallible.

However, if despite its context and lack of precise explanation of meaning, the statement somehow qualifies as a dogmatic definition, it is still within the authority of the Church to explain and define its meaning in the ways she has done since, because the original document gave no further definition or explanation.

Needless to say that I am with the first team. I believe that this statement has little if any doctrinal value at all, it is most likely the closing remark of a tantrum document, and one of the not-so-bright moments of the Papacy.

Precisely.

And even more, the document of excommunication is, first of all, personal against Patriarch Michael and a few of his closest hierarchs, not general against the Churches of the East, and secondly, the document is so plagued with errors that cannot be taken even seriousy and last, but never least, the document was issued without any legal authority, as Cardinal Humertus was no longer legally the Papal Legate, because the Pope had died a few weeks before his edict.

Pope Paul VI didn't need Patriarch Athenagoras gracious corresponding gesture of nullifying their own anathemas against us (which, I understand, were in no much better shape than our own). Declaring the 1054 null and void was simply formalizing something that any respectable canon lawer should have seen on first sight.

The Church will never issue an official list of damned (an anti-canon, if you would), because the mission of the Church is to be a sacrament of salvation, not of damnation.

Pray for your parents, always. And entrust them to the infinite mercy of the Lover of Mankind, the Good God, the Father of all.

I assure you, your trust will not be misplaced.

Shalom,
Memo.

At a Catholic National Family Conference Fr. Shannon Collins did a talk on this and basically he said that the Catholic Church is like Noah's Ark travelling through time to the day of judgement and that all Christians that are saved are saved by being either in the ark (in the Catholic Church) or being brought to heaven by the Ark like a dingy being tied to the Ark and towed to heaven. So Trinitarian Christians not in perfect communion with the Catholic Church may be saved but it is because of our common baptism and the Church as the sacrament of salvation. The Church is the Body of Christ and there is only one Body therefore all Trinitarian Christians, even if they are not in perfect communion with the successor to St Peter, are still members in some way in the Catholic and Apostolic Church.

CCC 838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter." Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church." With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."

Actually, I'm under the impression that it was Boniface VIII and his decree (or bull, or whatever) Unam Sanctam. In any case, the best study of the matter is by a Father Sullivan (I forget his first name, so happy tracking in the computerized book services); he wrote, I think, about 10 years ago. In the USA particularly, the whole business is associated with the memory of Father Leonard Feeney and his "Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary". Father Leonard, thank God, died reconciled to the Church. A minority of his followers appear to teach that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church but that membership in the Catholic Church is mortally sinful. Applying this combination of teachings would present problems.
Incognitus

Sort of comes out sounding like "damned if you do, damned if you don't"

Vie

Dear ByzCathDad,

Actually, it depends on whether you are a Catholic or Orthodox Christian!

Both believe they are the True Church, outside of which . . .

Rome has never denied that the Orthodox Church is also the true Church - although "separated" or, as before, "in rebellion" against Rome.

But this can only apply to someone who knowingly believes the Catholic Church to be true and leaves it notwithstanding.

It used to be that Catholics and Orthodox believed that everyone knew their respective Churches to be "true" (wasn't it obvious? ) and were destined for hell due to their willful refusal to belong to them.

The same sort of naivete was demonstrated by the Lutherans who believed that if one rejected the "papalist traditions" then everyone would agree on their interpretation of the Bible and would belong to their movement.

The Anabaptists held to another interpretation, to the Lutherans' horror - who then proceeded to persecute the former.

Alex

Incognitus,

I think the text to which you refer is "Salvation Outside the Church? Tracing the History of the Catholic Response" by Francis Sullivan, SJ, published by the Paulists in 1992.

It used to sell for about $15 in paper; a quick check of Amazon just now shows 2 used copies available - at about $80 and $110. Guess there's still a demand for it . (At those prices, I may be willing to give up my copy.)

Many years,

Neil

Dear Neil,
You've identified the book I was thinking of. I've never owned a copy myself, but I did read it in a Catholic library.
Incognitus

God bless you all.

the document of excommunication is, first of all, personal against Patriarch Michael and a few of his closest hierarchs, not general against the Churches of the East, and secondly, the document is so plagued with errors that cannot be taken even seriousy and last, but never least, the document was issued without any legal authority, as Cardinal Humertus was no longer legally the Papal Legate, because the Pope had died a few weeks before his edict. Pope Paul VI didn't need Patriarch Athenagoras gracious corresponding gesture of nullifying their own anathemas against us (which, I understand, were in no much better shape than our own). Declaring the 1054 null and void was simply formalizing something that any respectable canon lawer should have seen on first sight.

Am I wrong or canonically speaking this would mean that the Roman Catholic church (in whole} an the Orthodox Churches were not excommunicated?

Hola,

Strictly speaking, you are right, that is the reason why Vladimir Soloviev proposed (a century ago) that you can, at the same time, profess the entirety of the Catholic Faith and yet remain Russian Orthodox. This idea fueld the still small, but very respectable Russian Byzantine Catholic Church.

However, most of Orthodox and maybe Catholic canonists will tell you that although the initial documents cannot support, on their own, the lack of communion between the Churches, both because it was not their purpose at all, and because of their very serious formal and material defects, the documents did send the process of separation between the East and the West beyond the "point of no return", and the documents mark the "de facto" schism, even if they are insufficient as "de jure" foundation.

I do not know what it will take to re-unite the Churches of Christ, but undoing what those documents did surely is not enough, because we already undid the documents, and here we are, unable to share the Lord's table with one another yet.

Shalom,
Memo.

Christ is risen!

Gracias Memo for your answer. I believe the deepest problem among Catholics and Orthodox is no longer really a Theological one, but it seems to me it is a "war of pride", very sad... once I heard at the Orthodox Cathedral of Hagia Sophia in Mexico City a Deacon say that the union among us would never be reached since we worshipped another god and not the real God (referring to the Filioque) Something that impresses me much is that the Canon Romanum said "...et omnibus orthodoxis, atque catholicae, et apostolicae fidei cultoribus. (and all orthodox believers and professors of the Catholic and Apostolic Faith) and today that after Vatican II supposedly we are much closer, that part has been suppressed (at least in the Spanish version) maybe LatinTrad can help me understand this.

But above all, let's pray for our re-union, so we can be one flock under one Shepperd.

God bless you all