www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Pope to meet with SSPX

We should welcome the Prodigal Community with open arms, a ring, and a feast.

Some could claim that Rome acted in similar fashion in relation to the East. But that is another homecoming to look forward to.

Joe

Dear Myles:

I think most students of dicasterial on-goings know the nature of a Personal Prelature. There is only one as of now: the Opus Dei.

The theoretical question was popped because of the previous difficulty Rome met in dealing with the St. John Vianney schism. This group wanted jurisdictional independence a la Opus Dei but they were convinced by Rome to have an Apostolic Adminstration instead, with a defined and delimited territory: Campos, Brazil.

It is harder to corral the SSPX into an Apostolic Administration, for example limiting its territorial jurisidiction in France, as it has parishes widely distributed in several countries.

Yes, if ever the SSPX leadership agrees to a compromise, ideally it should merge with FSSP. But, then, FSSP has earned its own name and is growing exponentially.

Reality might dictate the continuation of SSPX as it is with regular Apostolic visitation from those responsible in the Roman Curia.

On this note, the chances for reconciliation should be at least a 50/50 proposition.

Amado

Gotcha A. Although I'd say the chances for reconciliation are somewhere near 25% or lower. As much as I'd like it, I cannot see it. Case in point the general public only discovered this meeting because one of the SSPX opposed to 'compromise' leaked it.

Ya know you really get an education on this forum. Thanks!

Memo writes:
Their "brave resistance" is against, among other things, a General Council of the Church. In that regard, they rank right next to Arius.

As far as I know, the Traditionalists do not deny that Council as a whole but refuse to adopt some of the interpretations that are given to the documents. There are some who are probably more radical and who deny it as a whole but neverthless it's "just" one council.

How many of your councils do our Churches deny as being Ecumenical and Catholic? About 20 I think. And the attitude of the Western Church toward the Eastern Church is very different.

Now, my question is as follows: how would the Roman Church deal with the Eastern Rite communities that exist within the SSPX such as the St. Josaphat group in Ukraine, the Russian priests and some Syriac communities in France?

I know they're a minotiry but this makes it more complex.

Hi,

Traditionalists, as you call them, come in all sizes and flavors.

There are those who just prefer the old rite and attend to a Tridentine Mass whenever they can, but remain faithful to and in communion with the Latin Church.

On the other end of the spectrum are those who claim Blessed John XXIII was not a validly elected Pope (therefore, they claim he was an Anti-Pope), and could not have called a validly constituted General Council of the Catholic Church. Therefore, what we know as the Second Vatican Council was, in their opinion, a big circus, and Popes Paul VI, John Paul I, John Paul II and Benedict XVI have not been real Popes, but Anti-Popes as well. Some believe we are still in the interregnum after Pope Pius XII, some have dared to "replace" him with a "Pope" of their own.

The SSPX is kind of in-between. They acknowledge the Catholic Bishop of Rome, they believe his is infallible in matters of faith and morals, but they quite blatantly refuse to acknowledge the validity of the rite he approved 30 years ago. They acknowledge the Council, but they do not want to follow its guidelines (and no, I am not talking about some of the scary "spirit of" stuff we see now and then, I am talking about the letter of some of the documents).

Ah, but the situation there is very different.

The Councils the Orthodox do not acknowledge are those that came after communion was broken between the West and most of the East. It is quite natural they did not participate in those Councils and therefore, they do not have anything to do with them.

In the event of a future reunion, we need to work out "doctrinal compatibility" with what was taught infallibly by those Councils, but we would not require agreement concerning the letter of their documents or their status vis-a-vis the first Ecumenical Councils (which are 7 for the Eastern Orthodox, but only 3 for the Oriental Orthodox and 2 for the Assyrian Church of the East).

If the SSPX would return to the Catholic Church, I assume those "Eastern rite" groups within it would follow suit and would be received by their corresponding Sui Iuris Churches.

I am confident those Churches would accomodate ther legitimate requests in order to heal the schism, but if that piece of the negotiation is not satisfactory, and the Latin SSPX still wants to return to the Catholic Church and leave behind these groups, well, they would need to re-organize themselves into yet another fully independent body, or go to the Orthodox Churches or figure out something else.

The Latin Church will not force other Sui Iuris Catholic Churches to accept these groups, if they find them unacceptable, and chances are the Vatican would not establish these groups as Sui Iuris Churches themselves.

Shalom,
Memo

This link was on Spiritdaily

Pope opens talks with Latin Mass renegades [timesonline.co.uk]

Dear Pani Rose:

The initial meeting today is done and, as the story indicates, there will be future meetings:

http://www.ewtn.com/vnews/getstory.asp?number=60050

A glimpse of the future: "Informed Vatican officials speculate that Pope Benedict may be prepared to grant the traditionalist request for a 'universal indult' allowing the use of the Tridentine rite."

Amado

This is wonderful news.

Let all those who desire a Christian reunion continue to pray very hard for this.

A universal indult has both pros and cons, in my view.

Personally, I find the TLM to be a much fuller embodiment of the Faith, not to mention it is ancient and aesthetically beautiful. To see it replace many Novus Ordo Masses would be nothing short of nirvana for me as an individual. Others disagree, but hey, this is my list so I can say and think what I want!

That said, I do sometimes hesitate at the idea of an automatically-granted universal indult (as great as it would be) because it's possibly that you might get priests who are not well-trained in Latin, have little to no knowledge of Gregorian chant or sacred polyphony, aren't familiar with the rubrics of the TLM itself, or simply voluntarily bring common NO abuses into the TLM. It seems to me that we have to work this very slowly, and it seems that by granting a universal indult a kind of "free for all" with very messy consequences could be created.

One does have to wonder, however, how it could be worse than much of what's going on in the liturgy at the present time.

Hopefully only those who are acquainted with and have an affinityu for the ancient Mass will celebrate it.

Logos Teen

Most priests ordained since, say 1980 would be unable to translate the Ave Maria, let alone understand the text and rubrics of the Missale Romanum. But I can't imagine why any significant number of such priests would wish to celebrate the Tridentine Mass.

Nonetheless, I certainly hope that Pope Benedict XVI will grant the request (which comes from many people besides Lefebvrists) to confirm formally that any priest who cares to do so is free to use the 1962 Missal. That would make life considerably easier.

As for what is to become of the "Lefebvrists of the Byzantine Rite", I have no idea. The whole thing was madness to begin with - although predictable in view of the difficult situations of the underground.

Incognitus the Inquisitive Inquisitor

Dear Logos Teen:

I share your observations!

Gradual allowance seems to be a workable solution. Dioceses which currently have FSSP, ICK, or SSPX priests should start scheduling the celebration of the TLM (High or Low Mass) on Sundays, alternating among the parishes that have standing requests. (But the 11 or noon Mass should always be "High Mass!")

Tne Missa Normativa would still be the Novus Ordo, especially early mornings.

Eventually, everything will come around!

Amado

Hello

Something that is really interesting about the Eastern Rite communities who work with the SSPX is that they come from the opposite sides!

In Ukraine there's a Society of St. Josaphat, created by priests (most of them married priests) who left the UGCC because their bishops were "too Eastern", issued Ukrainian translations of the liturgy and rightly discouraged devotions to the Sacred Heart and the rosary that their people did not want to loose because "it made them more Catholic".

I believe that the Latin Traditionalists, by receiving them into their flocks, showed that they do not really know about Eastern Christianity. They failed to understand that the Latinitzations defended by the SJ priest, are the Eastern form of Modernism and Liberalism.

On the other side, their Russian supporters come from the most "reactionary" Orthodox groups (the priest who helps them there is a former Suzdalite!), they are staunch anti-communists and support the SSPX because of the Fatima message. They are ultra-orthodox in practice and stronly discourage Latinizations.