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More & more often I Roman Catholics speak of the Theotokos as "Co-redeemer". The logic being she suffered when he was on the cross and therefore is part of Gods redeeming of mankind as if Christ didn't may all our debt of sin. If this ever becomes a dogma how would the eastern Bishops responed? How do they respone now knowing that this teaching is becoming more wide spread?

Odo

[ 08-17-2002: Message edited by: Odo ]

[ 08-17-2002: Message edited by: Odo ]

They talk about a subordinated co-redemption.
It was said that in this trip to Poland, the Pope was going to promulgate a new dogma (the 5th dogma), the Virgin Mary as Co-Redeemer.

As most of the latin dogmas related to Our Blessed Mother, this one will probably cause confussion among many Eastern Orthodox Christians because of the radical interpretations of the Western Church.

Anyway, the Western Church has always prefered to show the devotion to Our Lady with new Dogmas, the Eastern Church shows this devotion in a liturgical way.

Calling the Theotokos a �co-redeemer�, even with the carefully hedged theological qualifications given by the Latins, is not Orthodox.

The prefix �co� denotes a necessary partnership, similar to the words �co-author�, �coconspirator�, or �coequal�.

Since Mary received redemption by our Lord God, she is not a �co-redeemer�, but more properly, �co-receiver� of Christ�s redemption. In other words, she did not redeem with the Lord, she received redemption.

As far as the Latin DEFINTION of �co-redeemer�, I don�t think I have a particular problem with it, but think like the Russian theologian Vladimir Lossky who said regarding the Latin DOGMA of the assumption: "It is not so much an object of faith as a foundation of our hope, a fruit of faith, ripened in tradition. Let us therefore keep silence, and let us not try to dogmatise about the supreme glory of the Mother of God."

In the Matins hymn "Host of Angels" the version I have at hand states the following:

Now and Ever...
O Virgin, you bore the Giver of Life, you redeemed Adam from his sin and granted joy to Eve instead of sadness...

"you redeemed Adam from his sin"

Is this an accurate translation from an original text?
SheldonFurryback

The translation "you redeemed Adam from his sin" is accurate. The proper understanding of this is that Mary said "yes" to God and followed God's will for her and, in doing so, became the new Eve. As the new Eve she bore the Savior. Therefore it is appropriate to say that she had a hand in redeeming Adam (and all mankind).

Regarding the issuance of a new Marian dogma, I believe that the Vatican has already rejected the idea of declaring Mary as "co-redeemer". Such an idea apparently still remains popular in certain Roman Catholic circles.

Why so much distaste for Latin theology? It's just as valid as Eastern theology. Maybe the entire Church should embrace the "co-redemptrix" idea. Just a thought.

Soli Deo Gratia,
ChristTeen287

The Administrator writes:
"The translation "you redeemed Adam from his sin" is accurate. The proper understanding of this is that Mary said "yes" to God and followed God's will for her and, in doing so, became the new Eve. As the new Eve she bore the Savior. Therefore it is appropriate to say that she had a hand in redeeming Adam (and all mankind)."

If it is okay to sing in the official Liturgical worship of the Church, that Mary "redeemed" anyone, then it must be just fine to call Mary a co-redemptress, as far as I can tell. Maybe all the controversy is just crypto-Protestant bias.
SheldonFurryback

Friends, the following is the text according to the Velikij cerkovnyj sbornik with bishop Pavel�s (Gojdič?) imprimatur of November 7, 1936 in Pre�ov.

�iznodavča r�d�i, hrich� Ď�vo Ad�ma izb�vila jes�, r�dosť �e J�vi v pečali m�sto pod�la jes�: p�d�yja �e ot �izni, k sej napr�vi, iz teb� voplot�vysja Boh i čelovik.

Sheldon�s question regards what is rendered in English "you redeemed Adam from his sin" the corresponding Slavonic is �hrich� �vo Ad�ma izb�vila jes�.� The verbal phrase here is izb�vila jes�.

Izbaviti cannot be authentically rendered redeem. The Slavonic verb used for the Salvific acts of Our Lord is usually �iskupiti.� Those who have a basic understanding of linguistics and a modern Slavic language will recognize this correspondence readily. Redeem is related to the Latin empt- root (remember �caveat emptor�?). Kupiti is a word for to buy.

We normally render izbaviti as free or deliver as in the Lord�s prayer ��no izbavi nas ot lukavaho.� I think we all agree that is �but deliver us from evil (the evil one).� It is NOT ��but redeem us from evil.�

The redemption already took place once and for all time by Our Lord. What the Most-Holy Theotokos does is other, not redeem.

Sheldon�s question �Is this an accurate translation from an original text?� must be answered NO! Can by much fanangling sense be made of that translation? Perhaps. Again, this is not what the Slavonic that those translating from means. Someone who has the resources and knowledge of Greek, please contribute.

Bob

[ 08-17-2002: Message edited by: Bob King ]

[ 08-17-2002: Message edited by: Bob King ]

Dear Administrator,

My memory is also that the Vatican did indeed refuse to dogmatize the notion of Mary as co-redemptrix. This was despite the heavy pressure from some groups in the Latin Church to have the notion raised to the status of dogma. It seems to me that it was reported that there was strong resistance from many in the hierarchy and among theologians. There was discussion of this in the religious press and in the secular press at the time.

Among the reasons circulated at the time, if memory serves me correctly, was a concern that such a declaration would create further divisions between the Catholic Communion of Churches and the Orthodox Communion of Churches.

Steve

[ 08-17-2002: Message edited by: Inawe ]

I understand that the in the Orthodox Divine Liturgy...there are some mentions that Theotokos as being Co-Mediatrix.

Is Co-Mediatrix different than Co-Remdemorix?

Thanks.

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

SPDundas, please give specifics.

Bob

The theology of co-redemtrix is heretical. There can only be one redeemer, that is Jesus Christ, true God and true Man, one of the Holy Trinity. The Theotokos is God-bearer, and her intercession is powerful, but she is not God, did not die on the Cross nor rose again on the third day.

Yes, the notion of co-redemptrix is quite different than the notion of co-mediatrix.

In the Service of the Small Paraklesis, the phrase "Most Holy Theotokos save us" is repeated numerous times. This draws me to conclude that Mary is the one who saves us. Hmmmm, *maybe I just don't understand the theology regarding this particular phrase*.

Soli Deo Gratia,
ChristTeen287

This is used in other services as well like Vespers and Matins. Again, it is not 'redeem us.' The Slavonic is "Presvjata Bohorodice, spasi nas. I think this was dicussed in another thread but I could be confused.

No Orthodox Christian should have a problem with the Roman Catholic belief in Mary as Mediatrix of All Graces.
Look at what St. Nicodemus of the Holy Mountain says:

And now, since our Lady the Theotokos as the Mother of God is in the immediate presence of God and incomparably surpasses not only men but even the first and highest ranks of the angels, the cherubim and the seraphim, she distributes in her own person the wealth of all the graces and divine illuminations that come from God to all, to angels as well as men, just as the Church of Christ as a whole generally believes.

I found this quotation in Deification in Christ by Panayiotis Nellas, p. 235.

This is close to, if not exactly what Catholics intend, when calling Mary the Mediatrix of All Graces.
SheldonFurryback