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Thank you Byzantino,
I guess I should have known that.I get scatterbrained.
Moncobyz,I to have been to the parish in Kansas City in the last two years and I almost broke into tears because it was almost dead.There was only 4 other people there and the Preist.I just wanted to hold them all in my arms and save them.The Iconostas is Beautiful though and the Rapidia are to die for.

C4C - the attendance in Kansas City is up about 200% now. The part-time Roman biritual priest retired. The parish has a full time Byzantine pastor now present who is really moving on getting the parish built up. And now that parish also has a full curtain and most of the pews have been removed.

Hey was that parish Ruthinian? And if so what are the regulations on the curtain.I would love to remove the pews in my parish but that is an uphill battle here. :rolleyes:

C4C,

The latest was from the 'Instructions.'

Perhaps that will be true, and I hope so. However I agree with the Administrator on this point, it still has not been established why any changes to the Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chyrsostom are needed. I look forward to hearing reasons for revising what tradition has handed to us. But as yet they have not been provided.

Perhaps the point is that it will standardize abbreviations and compromises, and there will not be much of a difference for many parishes who already are used to shortening and simplifying the Liturgy. I know many parishes do not celebrate the whole Liturgy now. But monasteries do, and some parishes do. It worries me that some think that we will agree upon any other standard than the complete Liturgy. The only acceptable standard is the whole tradition [eg. the accepted Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom and no other], carefully and accurately translated without abbreviation or editing.

No other standard will be a real 'standard', it will only be convenient in some places, in other places it will remain controversial.

Dear c4c, according to the Ordo Celebrationis the curtain (veil) is opened at the beginning of the Liturgy (actually after the censing of the Proskomidia) closed after the Great Entrance, opened when the priest intones "the doors", closed after the intonation of "Holy Things for the Holy" until the communion of the priest is completed, and then the veil remains open until the end of the Liturgy.

These are in addition to the rubrics concerning the opening and closing of the Holy Doors. Unfortuntately these rubrics are basically ignored in most (but not all ) Ruthenian/Ukrainian Greek Catholic parishes.

Father, bless! A very good observation. I just now have the parish and our junior cantor used to singing all of the antiphons with all of the verses for Sundays. I'm not about to go to the kleros and say, "well, let's just forget about all of that, skip it..."

Fr. Elias,

I am confused. You are an instructor at our seminary, you rub elbows with members of the liturgy commission more than most of us - seeing how the commission meets at the seminary. Have you not had the opportunity to discuss your questions or concerns with any of its members?

Cantor Joe Thur

Diak,

Let's be practical. Given how our liturgy returned its traditions by pioneering priests over the past few decades, do you really think anything official, even if truncated, will stop a much fuller liturgy from being celebrated? Many parishes dropped the Filioque long before it became a mandate (except for Pittsburgh). I just went through a banker box full of private publications of vespers, triodion, presanctified liturgy, st. nicholas vespers, etc. All done by daring clergy skilled in the fine art of cut-and-paste. For or against, I am only being realistic. If a parish is used to singing more than a bare minimum, then they will continue. There are no liturgy police in our church. If there was, then all of our parish temples would have iconostases in them! But they don't. I personally believe that some are making much ado about a fangless boogieman.

And anyway, our cantors are no longer ordained. They aren't oblighed to the same rule of obedience as did those Professors assigned to a parish as full-time (and paid) cantors. We are volunteers. I am not promoting a willful lack of cooperation, but just a reality check in what our church has developed over the years. The Church will now reap what it sowed. It doesn't ordain its cantors, it doesn't pay them, and it doesn't demand obedience. In turn, it will get what it gave them. The 'Return on Investment' will be miserable.

But I am sure that there are many lawncare specialists, secretaries and janitors getting an income to keep our temples and their environs looking pretty.

Cantor Joe Thur

You're asking for a lot, Lance :rolleyes:

Even if the "liturgy police" existed, I would take it as a compliment if I got written up a few times for "resisting abbreviations" or "aiding and abetting easternization". I've done plenty of those cut and paste pew books myself...

You know the difference between a liturgist and a terrorist, don't you? You can negotiate with a terrorist.

My point is that we have come a long way in the last even 10 years, making good progress in restoring fuller liturgical celebrations and Byzantine tradition, and some of us won't be turning back to the abbreviated past. "Bogeyman" is a good term.

Besides, our parishes have always pretty much each done their own thing anyway. :rolleyes:

[/QUOTE]Fr. Elias,

I am confused. You are an instructor at our seminary, you rub elbows with members of the liturgy commission more than most of us - seeing how the commission meets at the seminary. Have you not had the opportunity to discuss your questions or concerns with any of its members?

Cantor Joe Thur [/QB][/QUOTE]

That is a very good question indeed! I too am confused sometimes. I don't think the commission has met at the seminary (at least while I have been there). I think they usually meet in a hotel or neutral meeting place.

Yes, I have had the opportunity to 'rub shoulders' in a social setting, and when the opportunity has presented itself, I have made known some of the very same thoughts I have posted here last year, and now again this year. Some of the commission (from other eparchies) I do not know at all.

I think some of the members of the commission do know something of what I think and do know of my thoughts concerning the 'new Liturgy', and the innovations and decisions they have taken. Some, I think, have read my opinions here in this place! Privately, some have told me that they agree with this or that point I have made, or that they disagree with this or that point I have made (more often the latter). As has been seen here in this place, there are those who think I have been hurtful and disloyal to make the observations I have made in public. But disloyalty is not my intention, and I do like them all personally, and respect their dedication and hard work (there is lots of hard work involved in translation, I have done some). My objections are not personal, only conservative and philosophical.

But I suppose, like teachers in any faculty, we do not always have to agree on all issues. Conservatism has never been popular. Yet I hope we can work together, and meet together, and socialize together, without having to surrender opinions and viewpoints.

Clearly my views about the revision of the Liturgy are not shared there. I can live with that, and I am sure no one else looses sleep over it. I know I flatter myself to consider my thoughts something like the 'minority report' or the 'dissenting opinion' on the court, in fact they are not that important. Even though my arguments are not persuasive to anyone but me, and my opinons will not win anyone over, they are mine anyhow. Shall I apologize for them? I express them anyway, and until a decision is made, I feel free to do so. No one in authority has asked me to be silent.

I am sure I am something of an outsider. I am a monk, and not a member of the clergy of the archeparchy, or other eparchies. My training, formation, education and experience has been different from the other priestly and full-time staff. But they ask me back to teach anyway! No one is more amazed than I have been, that they tolerate me, and that I have not been replaced.... yet.

Wouldn't it be wonderful to be arrested for taking too much of the Liturgy, or for praying for too long!

Be careful what you wish for . . .