www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology New Martyr Patapios Emilianov, priestmonk

Glory to God, those evil days are long gone and the Old Believers can now return to their rightful patrimony---the Holy Church of Russia.

That is where they truly belong, I believe.

FG

Free Greek has a point, one I thought of when reading of Fr Patapios and his congregation's odyssey. That part of a group so narrowly Russian that it opposed the Latin form of the cross as evil would 180 and join the Pope's communion is bizarre.

Makes about as much sense as an Earth First! spotted-owl shoot (a P.J. O'Rourke analogy about similar contradictions).

So the group with small differences — the Nikonian, standard Russian Orthodox Church — wasn't good enough to be in communion with, but some group with marked differences — the Roman Catholic Church — was?!?!

But OTOH as Alex describes, this subgroup saw the enemy of their enemy as their friend. I understood that reading the history too.

There once (1950s? 1960s?) was a remnant of Russian Old Believer Catholics who worshipped at Mt Angel Abbey (RC Benedictines) in Oregon in a special chapel set up just for them. One of the monks mastered Slavonic to help them sing services. I understand this small church is all gone now.

http://oldworldrus.com

Dear Friends,

The Old Believers in union with Rome also had a link to the nationalistic and even aristocratic intelligentsia of Russia.

The Russian intelligentsia in the West have always been open, not so much to Rome itself, but to western European culture and civilization.

My grandparents knew (and helped) Old Believers in Ukraine during the war.

They told me they were very "cultured," very Russian and dedicated to their Old Believer traditions.

They were also very receptive to Catholicism and kept asking my grandfather about the Catholic faith in union with Rome.

Old Believers in canonical union with Moscow today haven't lost, if my observations are correct, any of their disdain for their former persecutors either!

They are wonderful people and I am only too happy to work with them.

Alex

But a Russian is a Russian by any other name, Alex.

Remember that the Muscovite Patriarch who was their first nemesis was a graecophile, which is just fine with me. But the Old Believers truly believed in Holy Russia and her messianic destiny and had a distain for all 'orthodox' practices foreign to Russian tradition (or what they believed was Russian tradition).

And the estrangement from the Muscovite church hasn't blunted the Old Believers firm belief in the messianic role of Holy Russia, a role, by the way, that even I find almost irresistable not to long for.

I believe most Orthodox have at least some place in our hearts for the remembrance of Holy Mother Russia and see her as the bastion of Holy Mother Orthodoxy; and Holy Russia is the guardian of our future (I could be flayed alive for saying that, but honestly, I truly believe it.)

I tell you, when you are born into this holy, yet unholy, faith, the pangs of longing for our Orthodox greatness brings tears to the toughest of the tough.

Holy Saint Irene, when you are Orthodox, through blood or through the spirit, and when you read Dostoevsky (for example), whether you are Greek or Russian, you are reading your own autobiography. Mystical? Yes, but it is the truth.

I believe this irrefutable fact is not understood by many ecumenists. But it is my firm belief, based on my Orthodox instincts, that this very fact shall prevail against all false ecumenism and shall insure our
religious and cultural integrity. To latinize, for example, is more than an attack on our religious practices, but an assault on our Orthodox literature, art, music, and even our social systems.

Some would deduce from certain historical conflicts that the resistance of the Orthodox to integration into the Roman penumbra is based on a visceral hatred of all things Roman, Latin, and even the Unia. That is not the case----exclusively.


The Orthodox grass roots resistance movement is based on our deep love and devotion to and for our past, which inspires us in the present.

The devotion I speak of is transcendent of any animosities for either individuals or institutions.

Our determination to survive is based on the positive values of love and devotion for our Byzantine patrimony and not on the negative value of hate for the West. (Suspicion? Especially of Rome? Certainly. Hate? No, since hate is a negative value which limits our experience of joy as we celebrate and find comfort in Orthodoxy.)

(Of course, I understand the position of Slovaks, Ukrainians, Rusyn, and Romanian Catholics, but I honestly cannot sympathize with them. Forgive me for being frank...but not a "Frank.")


FG

[ 02-08-2002: Message edited by: Free Greek ]

Dear Free Greek,

I don't dispute what you write.

The Old Believers most certainly do believe in Holy Russia and their attachment to the two-fingered Sign of the Cross was based on a vision of one of their own who saw Christ commanding them to keep hold to this form of the Sign of the Cross.

But the Holy Russia they believed in wasn't the Holy Russia of Patriarch Nikon. They were two different "Holy Russias."

For the Old Believers, to be Orthoox was to be with them.

They regularly regarded the Greeks as heretics because of their three-fingered Sign of the Cross etc. They condemned Patriarch Nikon for going the "Way of the (heretical) Greeks."

Nikon, as you know, was "notoriously" Hellenophilistic. He even preferred Greek food over Russian cuisine, and his representatives often conferred with the Greek Orthodox to see what "they did" liturgically before deciding what to make normative in the Russian Church.

So, yes, the Old Believers loved Holy Russia. But it was their version of Holy Russia only and it didn't include a relationship to the Greeks.

They still remember what the state Church did to them, they forgive, but their martyrologies remind them.

I'm not suggesting that they should all come into union with Rome. Nor am I suggesting that the Uniate model is the model for church unity today. For me to say that, as a Greek Catholic, would be to contradict what Rome is saying - so I won't do that!

I am sorry you don't have sympathy for the Ukrainian Catholics - I can't speak for others.

Our Patriarch Joseph Slipyj addressed Greek Bishops in Greek and explained to them the situation of the Ukrainian Orthodox church in the 16th and 17th centuries. The Greek Bishops applauded him and told him THEY understood this whole matter better for him having spoken to them about it.

When I met an Athonite monk in Greece, I told him I was an Eastern Catholic.

He started to yell at me, saying that I was a heretic etc.

The tour guide, Eleutherios, told the monk I was Ukrainian Catholic.

The monk stopped being so angry and said, "Slipyj? Slipyj?"

I nodded approval.

The monk then smiled and said, "Ah, Slipyj!" He then blessed me and gave me an icon of Christ that I still have.

If an Athonite Monk can sympathize, please do try yourself, Friend in Christ!

Alex

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
[QB]Dear Doulos,

Yes, welcome back!

Hello!

You can find pictures, and a description of this vestment at: www.churchofthenativity.net [churchofthenativity.net]

Look under "Explanations".

An excellent site, by the way.

Michael


The Old Believer vestments also, if I'm not mistaken, include a long belt in the same style as the phelonion that hangs to the side, and I've not seen this on our clergy. The priests wear the traditional embroidered belt around their cassocks otherwise.

All Old Believers wear an embroidered belt to Church especially and the Bielaya Krinitsa Old Believers do sell them!

Well Alex,

Much of what we are discussing refers to events that are long ago and far away.

Certainly, the fraternal relationships shared by Old Believers, the Russian Patriarchal Church, and even Greeks, have changed for the better, even if only in the last few years.


Now the Old Believers and there Patriarchal cousins can begin the difficult task of rebuilding the spiritual infrastructure of Holy Russia, but this time together....as brethren.


As far as the past is concerned....."Let the dead bury the dead." Amin!

I can sympathize with ethnic groups and, certainly, with individuals within the Unia, but my conscience will not allow me to sympathize with the Unia per se.

Any Greek will feel a natural
affinity
for and comradeship with Ukrainians, and that is common knowledge ( I hope!).

But the Unia?

That is asking too much of us, I am afraid, especially when one understands our history.

Adio,

FG

Dear Free Greek,

Actually, the persecution of the Old Believers by the Nikonian Russian Orthodox Church and state are closer to us than the Unia!

Yes, of course, bygones should be bygones, and the Old Rite Orthodox in union with Moscow have come to recognize the "New Rite" and to live in harmony with one another, as befits Christians.

And I agree with you, that the Unia itself was not a good way to address the issue of the separation of the Churches at all.

The various Uniate Churches arose for different reasons, but the Greeks and others have consistently demonstrated a solid understanding for the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, if not for their own Uniates whom they regard as little more than traitors.

And we are grateful for that . . .

Alex

Glory to God for all things!

Dear friends,

Thank you for your answers. My knowlege of the Old Believers is limited. As you may have surmised, some Russian and Ukrainian Orthodox Catholics are considering commissioning an icon the martyred Priestmonk Patapios (1889-1936.) God's Providence is truly remarkable. Who could have forseen that an Old Rite Russian Orthodox in communion with Rome priestmonk would have such a vital cultus? He might well become the 3rd or 4th martyr of the Russian Orthodox Catholic Church.

Most Holy Theotokos of Fatima, save us.
Holy Martyr Patapios, pray for us.

Glory to God for all things.

Fr. Patapios had a deeply Christian spirit. Each of us whether Old Believer, Byzantine Catholic, or Orthodox could learn from his example and that of his parishoners. In 1920 after his village had been "liberated" by the Bolsheviks, the Boshevik authorities had to decide whether the parish church would belong to the Orthodox or to the Orthodox-Catholics. A clear majority supported Fr. Patapios. In 1924 the Bolsheviks, therefore, evicted the Russian Orthodox believers. Some of the local Russian Orthodox were so irate that they threatened to burn the church. Fr. Patapios was aghast. In his letter to Mtr. Andrew Sheptitsky he states, "Such an attitude is in opposition to the Christian spirit." He and his parishoners "thought it preferable to give up the church. We then began to assemble in a private house, rather ill-fitted to our purpose, it is true. Nevertheless, it is better to give up a material possession for a spiritual benefit." I think that this gives each of us food for thought regarding the recent Orthodox vs. Catholics struggles over church property in Romania, Slovakia and Ukraine.

Most Holy Theotokos of Fatima, save us.
Holy Martyr Patapios pray for us.

[ 02-11-2002: Message edited by: PaulOrthCathConfessor ]

[ 02-12-2002: Message edited by: PaulOrthCathConfessor ]