www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Catholic or Orthodox, I'm in distress!

Hello, peace be with all!
Today, I am Byzantine Catholic in affiliation and I like my parish very much. I enjoy many Catholic traditions and I believe very strongly in all Catholic saints.
But this is where the problem begins, a most mind-breaking problem. You see, I have always tried very strongly to defend papal infallibility and to believe in the office of the pope despite the moral freaks who occupied it at some times. I have always enjoyed the concept of one church and one legislation for all things, but I doubt that now, because of all the scandals circullating.
Particularly, I would like to address the Roman "interference" I have heard about in the assyrian church, the constant threat of Uniatism and latin abuses of the east, clerical molestation charges and cover-ups. I am at this point because I have seen dateline (or 20/20?) last night and I know see some ways that the church spends money in scandals. I am aware that it may just be local diocesan corruption, though I then hear of openly gay men and extreme liberals in the seminaries (even ones I used to want to attend!). In face of this, I can see but two choices, one being that the pope in his holiness (I will always believe in papal primacy of honour) will make sweeping reforms (at least in the U.S. and Canada) to remove these liberals and possibly educate or excommunicate them.
The other option is conversion to Orthodoxy. If I were to convert, however, I would probably be in a situation that I would be considered extremely liberal ( I am extremely Orthodox in practice yet very liberal in mentality). I would like to continue this discussion, though I ask that you all put in your input and help me out. Also, I would like to add one final point, if I became Orthodox, I would probably not be given rides to church and I would not know which autocephalous church to attend (Greek, Russian, Ukrainian, etc.).
-I thank you for all your input.
Justin, sinner, searcher.

Justin,

Follow where God leads you. I am sure God will bless you either if you stay a Catholic or join me in Orthodoxy.

Axios

Dear Justin,

I think these thoughts have crossed many a mind the last few days and weeks. One must keep in mind that the Catholic Church has two levels of distinct and independant "Church." First and foremost is the Deposit of Faith, Tradition, Scripture, and all the beliefs, morals, liturgies, praxis and other spiritual stuff that goes along with it. These things are why our Orthodox Brethren can say "I do not belong to any organized religion, I am Orthodox," and why we can say they are Church like we are Church.

The other "Church" of the Catholic Church is the one that gives everyone grief. That is the Church as a Hierarchial and (yes) saecular political institution. As that, it tries to play politic, and it should not, since politics (to me) is antithetical to Pastoral concern. Another thing, this problem is very likely not a problem outside of the USA or the Western world. It may not reflect on the Church at large. Also, the Media are not known for their love of Christianity and Christian principle. They love to attack the Church, and all this is an over exaggeration of teh situation at hand. Think of this: the media portrayal of ALL Priests is that they are ALL pedophiliacs (which is not the problem anyway), and that every child is preyed upon by them. I dont know about you, but my experience is that this came out the rear of Bessy.

There are problems in the institutional Church, but leaving for the Orthodox is not going to solve them. Staying and fighting for what is right will, or in the least is an obligation for us as Catholics.

Adam

Dear Justin,

I am so sorry that you're in distress. I too am in distress, in a way, and I too have been hit rather hard by all the bad stuff going on. Even today I picked up my morning newspaper only to see His Grace, the Bishop of Brooklyn (RC) with his hands in the air, with the caption "I'm sorry!", regarding how he handled this or that. I'm telling you, it really is rough...the other night, everything just came together, and I couldn't go to class, because I got sick with worry and even a little bit of fear.

Adam's right. Leaving for the Orthodox won't really help matters much. The problems that the Orthodox have may be different, but they're still there. Not to be one to spread scandal, but there are reports in India of this or that Orthodox priest(s) who have done heinous crimes worthy of what's going on now...not so many, but perhaps a handful. And that's just India. I'm sure in other places there are similar problems...perhaps they're dealt with better, more justly, or maybe they're covered up, and still haven't been brought to light. Who knows? And even if everyone on the Orthodox side of the fence was innocent of the kind of crime that many Latin clerics are being charged with, there are other problems there...not as serious in one way, more serious in other ways probably.

I'm not trying to make the Catholics look good by making the Orthodox look bad, or vice versa. All I'm saying is that every Church has problems. And this is because every Church has in its ranks a lot of sinners. Jumping ship from one that is full of sinners to another equally full of sinners isn't going to help much in that way.

Put your trust in God. He'll lead you where he wants you to be.

In the meanwhile, be faithful to your faith and spiritual life now. You're not gonna get holy worrying about priest scandals. Just fight the good fight and work toward your salvation in fear and trembling, as Saint Paul teaches us; that itself gives us enough to worry about. As (Saint) Pio of Pietrelcina (Padre Pio) said, "Pray, hope, and don't worry". God's in charge of the Church...let Him figure it all out, you just do what you've got to do.

While you're doing that, you might want to pick up some book suggestions from someone more knowledgeable than I, and read up on the issues that separate Catholics and Orthodox. Do some real studying. Maybe this distress you're in is a reaction to all that's going down, but if it's not, you owe it to yourself and to God to make your jump to Orthodoxy because you believe what the Orthodox believe, and that after some serious study, prayer, and discernment, and not because it looks like the Catholic Church is crumbling. If your only reason to jump is because of the actions of some sinners, then you won't be happy with the Orthodox either...both Churches have plenty of sinners.

Be good. Stay strong and hopeful. Keep the faith. And if you ever need anything, don't hesitate to email me or anyone else here who you think would be able to help. After all, it's times like this (and the server's post crash resurrection :p ) that make me realise that all of us here, Catholics, Orthodox, and everyone else, are more than a discussion group...in a very real sense, we're family (sounds sappy, but it's true :p ).

You're in my prayers, especially as we enter Holy Week and the Feast of the Resurrection. God bless.

Look noon e should get all bent out of shap because of these recent events. THey are merely problems that modern religious groups (All of them) must deal with but most choose not to. WE Orthodox are just as plauged with problems of the like, especially in some of our (Former) monasteries such as the one in Blancho Texas. Its a real sad thing in truth but we must remeber that the Church is Christ body. we human beings are just the planks that make up this bridge between Heaven and Earth. Some may be strong and sturdy, others weak and wabbly, and some may be completely deteriorated and fall away. BUT this does not effect anything of the dogmas and doctrines of the Body of Christ in any way whatsoever.
Let us also be ware that the secular media hates Christianity, and the Catholic Church (Which is the bulwork of our modern western civilization) in general. After the fall of mainline Protestantism,they see her as the last relevant bastone of morals and faith left to be conquered. So all the fires of Hell are going to be let loose upon her in order to both discredit and weakin the bbelief of her members. This is the policy of preparation for the coming of the Antichrist who will attempt to destroy the Church by creating a counter religion that promises a great deception of some sorts. I am not saying that the secular media is all willing accomplises to these events, but they are surely pawns in the preparation for the end times which ****MAY****
soon come to pass.
So do not let yourselfs be emotionally disturbed by these reports and keep in mind that much as the secular media attempts to destroy the Church, it is only because they fear her message and coware before the truth that she preaches.
Robert K.
Please excuse the apocalyptic overtones but I just cant help giving a fire charged sermon when I hear of news like this. Everyone alwyas said that I should have become a priest because I really tell it like it is to people when Im angry.

Dear Justin, Now is the time for you to be strong and strengthen your beliefs - not run away to another group.

Last evening on Fox's O'Reilly Factor, Mr. O'Reilly, a Roman Catholic, put forth his "demands" for certain Archbishops and Cardinals to step down. Personally I was appalled. How dare he criticize Holy Mother Church to gain television ratings!

Keep everything in perspective Justin. Try and understand the motivations of these media spins and pray, pray, pray. Whatever kind of scandals fall on the Church, remember Our Lord said He will always be with us.

Peace,
Loretta

Dear Friends,

It is a time of scandal and suffering for those of us, who gather in the name of Jesus Christ.

But, we must remember, the distinction between the laity and the clergy -- we are sinners and they are sinners in uniform! :p

We are called to forgive those who trespass against us, and this includes the Bishops who have screwed things up, by covering up scandal. And the handful of priests who are creeps.

This does not mean that we should have them in out parishes. There are plenty of monasteries and similar places where they can live their lives in prayerful contmplation. Maybe the Lord needs more prison ministers.

The Bishop in Florida who resigned and the late Archbishop Marino of Atlanta admitted their personal sins and retired.

I know of no direct offense by Cardinal Law, but he has admitted making mistakes in reassigning priests. I'm not sure if his offense is equivalent to that of one who broke his vows. But we need to pray for the Church of Boston.

We need more than ever to pray for our clergy. That they live Holy lives and that they are wise shepherds.

John
Pilgrim and Odd Duck

The manner in which the Orthodox Church conducted it's self during the massacre of Albainians by Serbian thugs is no small blemish on the hierarchy's of that Church or it's monastic community for that matter. I am always rather "put-off" when I hear Serbian monks whinning about their icons that got scratched by some Albainian hoodlums as though it compares to the rape and murder of an Albainian woman.

I am equaly "put-off" by the Pope of the Coptic Church who has forbiden Cpots from visiting Israel. My question is: were the Copts forbiden to visit aparthied South Africa? I don't seem to recall so.

I recall a few years back the hierarchy of the Greek Orthodox Church was embroiled in some multi-million dollar scandle.

***

Robert,

What is going on in the Catholic Church of the Latins is no small matter. Because the Church made an adult and commited decision that children would be safer in the protection of the mafia rather then in the protection of it's Bishops, our scandle unfolds be for world via the media and rightfuly so. The media may not like the Church all that well, but I don't think the media also seeks to destroy the Church. The media just exploits it's weakness for all it's worth.

Just my opinion, and only my opinion, but I think the "end of the world" would be closer at hand *if* laity did not get outraged and shookin. If homosexual intimacy between to adult men causes one, more moral outrage then that of an adult male Priest mis-useing his genitals on a pre-pubecent child - boy or girl - then I don't know what to say. But perhaps we need to get some secular bar-tenders in to teach moral theology to the laity and Bishops of the Church.

***

Can there be a motivational factor in all of this in coming to better understand your catholic identity? While I'm not the one to preach because my certianty in the Church at this point isn't the strongest. I will suggest this. For those catholics that can perserver through this, maintain prayer and fidelity to the Church through this --- if there is a bright light at the end of the tunnel, you can only come out for the stronger. You will have been tested through the fire and made durable like a sword or hammer. Proven true - think that's what Christ will say of you.

And what the hey! Rough times are need in any instituion worth it's salt, to weed out the weak of blood.

Wow! I am not even a Catholic yet it seems that I have more faith in that Church then some of her own members! Do not be afraid for God will save his people and bless his inheritance.
Robert K.

The only thing I can add--please remember, Papal Infallibility does not cover every word, thought or deed of the Pope--nor does it fall in anyway to his Bishops. It only applies to Doctorine of the highest order, and then only as expressed in specific cases. John Paul himself would tell you he is not perfect.

Catholic or Orthodox you will have to face the fact that your Deacon, Priest or Bishop are human beings, sinners like the rest of us.

Slava Isusu Christu!

Dear friend:

Here is the reality: Every religion, denomination, sect, cult, movement and as we have seen even the Church of Jesus Christ both Catholic and Orthodox, has those within their ranks both clerical and lay that commit grievous sins such as what has been discussed.

The Church has ALWAYS had immoral clergy who have abused their authority and were immersed in corruption, BUT the other reality is by virtue of that sin they have cut themselves off from the Catholic Church; one mortal sin leaves the soul dead and therefore excommunicated informally from the Church, even if there is no official letter of excommunication. And even in the Mystery of Repentance or Confession if the priest or bishop who committed these most greivous acts did not confess to the authorities and try to make restitution his confession and absolution would be invalid; for if a penitent does not perform his penance and try to make restitution for wrongs committed and tries to conceal his sin the priestly absolution is null and void.

The Catholic Church remains ever pure and unspotted. When a bishop or a priest for instance breaks their vows and not only that abuse another human person sexually et al, they are no longer Catholic and have seperated themselves from Christ and His Church, only after an ecclesiatical tribunal, discipline, civil prosecution and the person performs his sentence and receives his punishment, can they be restored in some measure. This is the appropriate action, but of course as we have seen in the cover-ups some wish to hide this matter and in so going share in the same mortal sin as those they are hiding.

So again as Catholics we cannot loose our Faith because of those who by virtue of their sin have cast themselves outside the bosom of the Church, but we must ever so remain pure and repentant and spotless before our Bridegroom. St. Francis, St. Anthanasius, and a host of other Saints saw in their day wholesale corruption and apostasy from the True Faith, but they did not leave their Mother the Church did they? No, they understood that the Church is ever spotless and ever pure and that unrepentant men and clergy do not constitute the Church, but are outside the Church. Let us then use the Saints actions as a model for how to deal with this situation. This is no new issue for the Church, the Church has dealt with these things before and will continue to deal with them. What we are about to see is God is getting ready to clean house, just as He has done in every generation. May God be swift and and may He be Just; and may God be there in his healing love for all of the victims of these so-called clergy, God have mercy on their souls.

Sincerely in Christ and the Theotokos,


Robert
www.geocities.com/greekcatholicliturgy/KanonBVM [geocities.com]

All that has been said here is good, and certainly none of us would wish to whitewash the sins of some of the members of the Church. Certainly, that is the key. It is not "the Church" who commits these sins, but some of her members. There may be bad popes, bad priests, and bad laity at any time. After all, even amongst the twelve Apostles hand picked by Christ himself, one betrayed Christ, the other denied him three times, and still the rest were no where to be found during his trial with the Sanhedrin. If the very hand picked apostles of Christ could so falter, we shouldn't be surprised when their some of their successors, and those of us who have followed in the faith, should do the same.

The key is how the Church responds, and I think it has responded well in acknowledging such sins exist and that they are sins. And further, that the individuals involved admit their sins, or admit they handled a particular matter poorly.

But the other thing I think that is important to keep in mind is that the media is no friend of the Catholic Church. Case in point. If a priest or bishop commits such an act, or is accused of such a thing, you may rest assured it shall be immediately all over the news. Yet, I recall hearing of a study done which showed that the rates of pedophilia amongst world religions, and of those in positions of leadership, etc. are no higher within Catholicism than anywhere else. In other words, the problem is not greater, nor unique to some clerics of the Catholic Church. Yet, from how the media reacts, you would think it is.

The key is that the media tends to use these things opportunistically. So too do some members of the Church itself who wish to use such matters to push their own agendas (e.g. de-clericilization of the Church, rescinding the celibacy discipline of the Latin rite, etc.). Why? Well, clearly the Catholic Church is an institution who has a head -- the Pope, and locally, the Bishop. This makes her an easy target since she is visible.

The pattern seems clear in such issues. The media jumps on the matter, and basically uses such matters to try and pull down the Church and her moral authority. Really, its a basic psychological ploy: in order to rationalize and justify your own position, you need discredit the opposing position in your own mind somehow.

The teaching of the Church is not permissivistic on a number of issues, especially sexual issues. Society on the other hand is obsessed with these things and is permissivistic. In the West, the Catholic Church really stands as the sole voice of moral authority, and, as they would see it, "conservatism" (to use their labels). They vehemently oppose this since the Church's positions are diametrically opposed to their own will. Hence, when some of the sins of some of the Church's visible members come forward, they pounce on this, and in draw flawed conclusions which suggest that this debunks the authority of the Church, and/or that of Christianity in general. This gives them a nice little rationalization which they see as justifying their position because they can then say to themselves that the Church is hypocritical.

What they don't properly distinguish is that the sins of individuals, even if it be the Pope himself, does nothing to take away from the authority of Christ and his Church itself. Why? Because those who commit such sins, do so *contrary* to the Faith and to the teaching of the Church, and not in communion with it. Also, they do such sins as individual human beings who are frail and prone to fall. Their office as priests or bishops does not preserve them from sin, or from imprudence.

So take heart. While the Church may have members within it who fall, the very apostles did at times as well. But Christ promised that the Holy Spirit should not let the gates of Hell prevail against His Church. The abuse that the Church and the Faith takes from the hands of secular society, and especially the media, is akin to the scourging and abuse which Christ also received for the sins of others. It seems only proper that the Church should share in this manner in the Passion of Our Lord.

Here too I think it well that Catholic and Orthodox stand together as seems to be the case here.

Justin,

I have waited a little to respond - in an attempt to sort out my own feelings about this.

I can understand your dilemma - which way to go. I think you are probably feeling that the priests, not the Church, has let you down. I have always thought of Priests as special people , and they are. However it took me a long time to realise that they are also human, like us. And like us they have failings. We are all sinners , and we all need to ask God's help to overcome our faults. Unfortunately these priests have not managed to do that and they have succumbed again and again, if we are to believe the reports in the press.

Certainly at the moment the Roman/Latin Church in the States is going through a very tough time - however it is God's Church and He will not let it fall. There is nowhere on God's earth that does not have similar problems.

I would suggest that you make no decisions about where your future lies - Catholic or Orthodox - at the moment. God Himself will show you in His good time- trust Him, He will not fail you .

Whilst you wait and think , pray for these troubled men - they need your prayers , and so do those whom they have harmed. Pray for the leaders of all Churches, and pray for good men to answer God's call to be His shepherds.

May our Blessed Lady , Mother of us all, my Mistress keep you in Her most tender care and lead you to Her Son.

Angela

I would like to point out a personal observation.

Currently the supreme court in the US is considering the constitutionality of vouchers to permit parents to choose the schools for their children.

Cleveland, Ohio has one of the worst public school systems in the USA. A large majority of school voucher recipients there have shocen Catholic schools. The NEA and their allies are furious about it and they want vouchers and school choice eliminated.

What better way to sway public opinion than to tar and feather the Catholic Church in the court of public opinion? By guilt through association, it can make Antony Scalia and Clarence Thomas look bad if they support vouchers.

I remember that the late Archbishop Bernadin of Chicago was accused of molesting a young man. Everyone wanted to hang the Archbishp from the highest tree. It turned out that the man lied about the Archbishop.

The media has a lot of power to sway public opinion. We don't hear of these problems in other churches, or in public schools. Not because it doesn't exist, but because the media chooses not to report it.

The Catholic Church simply must do a better job of attracting, screening and developing candidates for the priesthood. However, media hysteria isn't going to change my mind at all.
These are the same people who helped cover up for and made excuses for Clinton's personal behavior for years. I don't trust them at all.

Thank you all for your help, I now know again the place where my faith truly resides. You have all greatly helped me out in my time of need, exactly in the way I prayed to God for. As such, I impart my most humble thanks upon you and wish you a wonderful Holy Week.
-Peace and goodwill,
Justin, sinner