www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology U.S. Merger of Ruthenians & Ukrainians

Good Morning Brothers & Sisters:

I have some more questions:
1.) In the U.S., why don't the Byzantine-Ruthenian Catholics and the Byzantine-Ukrainian Catholics merge? They quite similar, right?
2.) Also what is the origin of the U.S. members of the Byzantine-Ruthenian Church...I don't believe its Poland, right?
3.) Where in Europe is the seat of the Byzantine-Ruthenian Church?
4.) In Europe, do the Byzantine-Ruthenian Catholics and the Byzantine-Ukrainian Catholics form one administrative unit, same hierarchs?

Regards,

Andy

Andy,
I will answer quickly, but I am sure others will respond and will have their own ideas on this subject.

I do not think that we are actually similar. In the area I live, Rochester, NY. The Ukrainians are very ethnic, to the point of isolating them selves a bit.

The Liturgies, while simular, use different languages, English/Church Slavonic (Ruthenian) and English/Ukrainian (Ukrainian), here it is just we have two Ukrainian praishes, one old calendar and one new calendar. All Liturgies are in Ukrainian, with one Liturgy at each (one on sunday at one and the saturday vigil liturgy at the other) in English but it is recited, not chanted. Both have 1 saturday vigil liturgy and 3 sunday liturgies.

Just as a side note, the offical title of our Church is the Byzantine Catholic Church, the word Ruthenian was dropped sometime ago.

Eastern Europe, Carpatian Mountians, I believe. Hungry and Yugoslavia to name two countries, my family is from the Yugo region.

I don't know this one so I will leave it out there for others.

No they do not.

Hope this helps.

David

Hi David, I see you're from Irondequoit; so am I. Although I now live in Dallas, TX I attended St. Josaphat's on Carter St - my parents still do (and they just adore Fr. Robert).

Hello, I have never been to either of them, I attend St Nicholas Melkite Greek Catholic in Gates, NY.

From what I have heard St. Josaphat's is the more ethnicly diverse one of the two. By the way, both Epiphany of Our Lord, and St Josaphat's are on Carter Street. Only about 3 blocks between them.

From what I have heard they are a bit latinized, that the Melkites here are more on the orthodox side of things.

David

GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST!
GLORY TO HIM FOREVER!

DAVIDB wrote:"...English/Church Slavonic (Ruthenian)..."

Not quiet correct. Church Slavonic is the language that Sts.Cyril & Methodius used when they brought Christianity to the Slavic people.

You will find Church Slavonic used in the Divine Liturgies of the Ruthenians, Ukrainians, Russians, Serbs, Bulgars, BeloRussians and Macedonians.

Ruthenian is the spoken language of one of the ethnic groups that inhabits the current countries of Slovakia, southeastern Poland, Western Ukraine and northern Romania.

I hope this helps...

mark

Hi:

First, they are not quite similar. In fact, they exist as two different bodies, precisely because they are different, have the right to be different and want to be different.

What used to be the "Ruthenian" Church, is pretty Americanized, to the point that they dropped the "Ruthenian" name altogether.

The Ukrainian Church is much more ethnic. However, my experience is not that they are isolated or unwelcoming of non-Ukrainians. On the contrary, the Ukrainians I know are very warm and friendly.

Second, uhmm... how should I say this? Let's say that jurisdictional unity is not precisely a Byzantine specialty.

Besides, the practice of having a common hierarchy for Churches of different liturgical tradition is unprecedented.

What I think is more workable is:

1. Hierarchical collaboration. Pastoral ministry does not always involve issues of authority. Byzantine hierarchs of overlaping territories can show a great deal of charity if they see to the needs of all the Byzantines in their area of influence, regardless of jurisdiction.

2. Pastoral care of parishes and missions without hierarchies. Instead of placing Russian, Romanian, Slovak and other Byzantine missions and parishes under the care of the Latin Ordinary, they should be placed under the care of a Byzantine Ordinary.

Those would be good places to start.

It would be Carpatho-Russia, which would be mainly Western Ukraine and Eastern Slovakia. It might include the very very South-Eastern tip of Poland, and if it includes portions of the ex-Yugoslavia, then it may also include good portions of Hungary and perhaps Romania.

Currently the only Ruthenian jurisdiction in Europe, that I know of is the Eparchy of Mukachevo in Ukraine.

No, they don't. The Byzantine-Ukranian list the Eparch of Mukachevo among their clergy, but Mukachevo is directly subject to the Holy See of Rome, not to the Major Archbishopric of Lviv.


Shalom,
Memo.

Then the two Ukrainian churches in Rochester are different as they us Ukrainian, not Church Slavonic.

And I was told, that the Liturgy at the Ukrainian Shrine of the Holy Family, the day of the March for Life, also used Ukrainian and not Church Slavonic. I couldn't tell the difference, but someone who was there could.

David

Hey Alex

Please explain the difference between Ukrainian and Church Slavonic to DavidB.

Dajkuju!

marko

Medved,

You missed David B's point. He was saying that the Ruthenians use Church Slavonic and the Ukrainians use modern Ukrainian. That's why he wrote English/Church Slavonic (Ruthenian) and English/Ukrainian (Ukrainian). That had to be his intent, not to suggest that Ruthenian was equal to Slavonic, or else he would have not wrote the /Ukrainian (Ukrainian) part as that would have been redundant. He was making an analogy.

In Christ,

anastasios

Hey if we want to get technical we'd have to say the language spoken by the Lemkos, Bojkos, and other Sub-Carpathian groups is "Rusyn" right, because Ruthenian per se is a Latin term!

In Christ,

anastasios

In Europe, are there any native speakers left of Rusyn?

It might help to recall that the "Ukrainian Catholic Church" traces its history from the Union of Brest-Litovsk of 1596. That union took place in the then Commonwealth of Poland-Lithuania and involved bishops of the Kiev Metropolia.

The "Ruthenian Catholic Church" (and its progeny) traces its roots to the Union of Uzhhorod of 1646. That union took place in the then Kingdom of Hungary and did not involve hierarchs.

The local usages were different, music is an example. Today the Ukrainian Church has mostly adpoted Ukrainian as its vernacular both in Ukraine and abroad. The Ruthenian Church (and its progeny) has mostly either kept Church Slavonic or adopted the local language, such as Hungarian, Slovak or English

In Vojvodina (modern Yugoslavia) there is a codified language called Rusyn. In Slovakia Rusyn was recently codified as well.

There certainly are peeople who claim to speak Rusyn or one of its dialects. While the opinion of linguists maybe be different, the speakers are convinced that they do not speak, for instance, Ukrainian, Slovak, etc

What does codified mean?