www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Mutual admiration society...

You know, we Slavs (I being a 1st generation born one) love to bring ourselves down. It is very easy to condemn us as compared to, perhaps, the "O"rthodox.....as if their "parish, liturgical/spiritual/dogmatic/theological life is better than ours. Baloney!
Has the Byzantine Forum become nothing more than a wasteland of Byzantine Catholics who desire to be Orthodox Christians, as if "they" hold ALL the eternal truth and perfect liturgical rubrics?
First, if you reading this think that then go to the Orthodox and be with God.

Granted, I have been a "Greek" Catholic all my life. But to think that growing a beard, and regressing, that's right, regressing to a church which flourished 50 years ago would make us a better church today is, well, wishful thinking.
My "idol", if you could call him that, Msgr. John Stim. He seemed larger than life.
He never cow-towed to those who would try to undermine him. He was abrasive and sometimes down right cruel. In 2004, I will have been a priest of the Byzantine church for 25 years. Do not send me emails congratulating me. I don't need them. Our Lord once said to some one who "seemed" patronizing: "Why do you call me good, there is only one who is good, God." True I may not know as much as the posters on this forum. I would only wish that they do more walking than talking. In other words, do something to bring people to our church.

All I know is what being in the MINISTRY, AKA being in the trenches, has taught me for the past 25 years, not what the Monday morning Kamalavka wearing, beard growing "intelligentsia" lay people think we priests "need" to do, and all will be better.
And to tell you the truth, I am rather sick and tired of individuals saying that we would be better off if we turned back the clock and made our church, our Byzantine Catholic Church like the Orthodox churches. The posters have no right to tell priests to grow beards because it would make us more "holy" or more "Orthodox!" My mother has stories about the Orthodox priests in Europe would treat our Byzantine Catholic Priests like dirt because they would not look like the "Katsaps" which was a derogatory term for "Orthodox priests" mainly those who separated from our church in the 50's, because their beards would look like the partially grown beards on goats!
The Orthodox have their problems. One of them is the boards, "curators" call them what you wish. I have a Greek Orthodox friend who is ready to join us, because he has been treated badly by the "rilers" of the church.
Carp, criticize, complain. It's the American way.
Our church has bigger problems than just the priest's grooming, and whether or not we have artos or not!
Like John Kennedy said (and I am paraphrasing): Ask not what your priests are doing for the church, as what YOU are doing to grow the church.

I think faster than I type. Where is the spell check when you need it?
I apologize to all readers!

Father Michael offers us a wonderful reminder that the Church is not about beards or a particular style of liturgical rubrics. It is about Jesus Christ. It is about making him the Lord and Master of our lives and calling the entire world to join us.

A bunch of years ago I attended a lecture by Fr. Thomas Hopko (a fantastic priest in the OCA). In his talk he spoke to one of the problems in Orthodoxy, that one can choose the century they wish to live in. He spoke to the need of the Church to neither live in the past nor embrace modernism, but to evangelize and allow the Church to live in this century. Father Michael offers the same advice. The length of one�s beard should never be the judge of one�s Orthodoxy.

I understand the essence of what Father Michael is stating. The directives of Pope John Paul II tell us to authentically re-embrace the Byzantine Tradition, using the current Orthodox praxis as the model. But the Holy Father was not talking about beards. He was talking about prayer: Vespers, Matins, and the Divine Liturgy. That is the renewal our Church needs. We need to pray and to teach the world to pray.


Hint to all our posters: If you compose your replies in Word or WordPerfect (or another word processing program) you can spell check it. Then all you need to do is to highlight the text, copy it and then paste it into the text composition box.

Bless me a sinner, Father!

(oops, sorry - is that too "Orthodox" for you? )

Certainly, what you've said is what most Ukrainian Catholics I know believe (except if you go to a parish like that of St Elias' in Brampton, Ontario!).

You've also touched on the issue of Russification and, yes, the political aspects of the Easternizing trends.

The "katsaps" were feared not only because of the potentially ticklish situation involving their beards . ..

They were feared by our peoples because they were carriers of the Russification policy.

The (certainly uncanonical) autocephalous movements deliberately had their priests shave their beards as a symbol that they were now independent of the Russian Orthodox Church!

But it was Met. Andrew Sheptytsky and Patriarch Joseph the Confessor who looked Eastwards and recast such traditions within a more liturgical/spiritual heritage light.

And you've touched on another important, what I"ll call "sociological" issue, that of the "Lay Orthodox Police" among the "pew people" in our Church.

I myself have always found it distasteful when laity presume to tell their priests how to "turn around before the Altar."

As an altar-server, I once verbally attacked a man who came to chew out our parish priest.

If you ever need someone to lambaste a particularly troublesome parishioner in this regard, please let me know.

Didn't Thomas Aquinas say that getting anger over a spiritual matter is a virtue?

Kissing your right hand, I again implore your blessing,

(sorry, but some habits, once assumed, just stay)

Alex

Anyone who assumes that those seeking liturgical, spiritual, and theological renewal per the Pope's request in Orientale Lumen and Vatican II's Decrees, are really focused on beards of priests, is seriously confused.

That he would then come on a forum and attack others for this straw man is a sign of his spiritual weakness.

If you are so concerned, offer prayers instead of attacks. Turn the other cheek.

anastasios

Dear Anastasios,

Forgive me, but what you said applies to you too, Big Guy!

Alex

And not only that, Anastasios, you get the point entirely backwards.

Those who are focussed on beards of priests are seriously confused and cannot be assumed to be seeking liturgical, spiritual, and theological renewal per the Pope's request in Orientale Lumen and Vatican II's Decrees.

Dear djs,

But when our Patriarch Lubomyr was here, he let school children come and pull on his beard.

It made great headlines!

And at the banquet, he lifted up two fingers in front of him.

Everyone thought he was going to give a special blessing and I saw people join their hands in the three-finger configuration at the ready . . .

But then the Patriarch lifted up his hand and scratched himself.

Oh, well . . .

Alex

I believe J. Kennedy took the original saying (about the country) from elsewhere.

Who is dictating to our clergy to wear beards?

Joe

//My "idol", if you could call him that, Msgr. John Stim. He seemed larger than life.
He never cow-towed to those who would try to undermine him. He was abrasive and sometimes down right cruel.//

Just the kind of living icon we can all look up to. Wouldn�t Jesus Christ be a better role model?

//True I may not know as much as the posters on this forum. I would only wish that they do more walking than talking. In other words, do something to bring people to our church.//

How do you know that the posters on these forums only talk?

//All I know is what being in the MINISTRY, AKA being in the trenches, has taught me for the past 25 years, not what the Monday morning Kamalavka wearing, beard growing "intelligentsia" lay people think we priests "need" to do, and all will be better.//

The kamalavka doesn�t make the priest. You should know that. And we DEFINITELY know that.

//And to tell you the truth, I am rather sick and tired of individuals saying that we would be better off if we turned back the clock and made our church, our Byzantine Catholic Church like the Orthodox churches.//

Turning back the clock? This is the same pitiful argument used time and time again. While many didn�t want to �turn back the clock� on our Eastern traditions, it was perfectly fine to adopt anything BUT our traditions. This is considered progressive. Yet, it is the same ol� story of being a mere lazy copy-cat. We should concern ourselves with producing what is on the label.

//The posters have no right to tell priests to grow beards because it would make us more "holy" or more "Orthodox!"//

Who is demanding the priests to wear a beard? Many clergy have begun to wear them on their own without some mandate. This instruction was never included in the �Instructions� or the Vatican II Decree on Eastern Churches or in any papal encyclical. So, what sources have you been listening to while more instructive ones are out there?

Are you celebrating the festive vespers for October 1 tonight in your parish? What do you think of the reference to Isaiah in the second sticheron at Psalm 140? It is sung according to the beautiful Podoben Tone 1: O divnoje cudo. What do you think would be a good sermon for your people tonight about Mary in lieu of Isaiah?

Cantor Joe Thur

My point is that it is a straw man argument. There are very few people in the world that are focused on beards. In the case of such rare people that do focus on such things, then I would agree with you.

anastasios

Dear Cantor Joe,

I think there really is a kind of "social pressure" exerted in this and other areas by those in our Churches who promote beard-wearing as a visible expression of one's devotedness to Eastern traditions.

When I was at a banquet for our new bishop, our Metropolitan from Winnipeg was there, and more than one person eagerly told me, "Look, he's now wearing a beard!! There's still hope for our Church!"

Then there was the fellow who was counting the number of priests in Church who wore three-bar Crosses . . .

Having a beard truly is required by Orthodoxy, is it not? The priest or bishop being an icon of Christ and all that?

But what Father has written hear in terms of pressures exerted by Easterners in our Church and self-proclaimed lay and clerical experts who are more "Orthodox than the Orthodox" is entirely true.

I'm not saying that going back to Eastern traditions is wrong, heaven forbid.

But perhaps Father is suggesting that we get caught up in the "symbols" and "emblems" of Eastern traditions without, at the same time, focusing on Church outreach and the like.

Haven't you made these points before yourself as well?

Alex

How so, mily pan doktor? Please elaborate!

anastasios

I like beards, at least on men, and I like them on priests. But I know some priests who do not have beards that I like as well.

I'm thankful that many in our Church are reclaiming our heritage. If someone doesn't want to reclaim it, that's their business. I don't order people around and I've not noticed anyone doing that on this board.

Father Michael, I love you for your devotion. Keep up your good work. As far as I'm concerned you may or may not grow a beard. I will still love you. And I love evangelism. Want to read about some of things I've done?

Dan Lauffer

Dear Mily Pane Bogoslove Anastasius!

Only that if you are going to critique Father for attacking, then perhaps you shouldn't have offered him your own thrust by suggesting spiritual weakness on his part?

I've never studied moral theology, so I'm not 100% sure about this!

Your zeal is well taken and I know you have a very nice beard.

It makes you look downright handsome, in fact!

Alex