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Dear Teen Logo,

And during the time of Jerome Savonarola, whose followers recited that Psalm habitually, the Church in Florence forbade its use as a result . . .

At least Anastasios isn't considering going ROCOR like our Studite Archimandrite up here!

Alex

Weird again! St. Philip Neri, probably my favorite or at least one of my favorite saints, was a devotee of Savonarola, as I'm sure you're aware.

Logos Teen

it is hard to imagine St Philip who certainly had one of the best senses of humor being fond of the severe Savonarola Stranger things have happened!!!!

Dear Anastasios,

I just wanted to repost an earlier post, about 1 PM today from Forum 4 on the HOCNA.


"Posted by anastasios:

"I stick around because I am 1) interested in the discussions and 2) among friends."

The discussions are interesting and you help to make them so. You are indeed among brothers and sisters who are your friends.

We hold you close to our hearts.

Steve


PS.

Now, if you want someone to ask you to stay in our communion of Churches, consider it done.

That being said:

May the Lord make your path home level and straight."


Another latin who values your contributions to our Communion of Churches,

Steve

There's those darned beards again!
:p :p

Has anyone Out There in cyberspace seen the film version (excellent) of Kazantzakis's Celui Qui Doit Mourier [He Who Must Die}? It includes the wonderful line "Call me when the beard-pulling starts!". Incognitus

Anastosios- I'm new to these conversations and haven't "known" you long but be assured that I will grieve if you break your [admittedly tenuous] communion with the Bishop of Rome, even for something as attractive as the OCA [I long for formal reunion so I can receive Communion at the local OCA parish, which features the most beautiful Russian icons I have ever seen].
No branch of the Church has everything; the Orthodox have preserved so much that has been lost in the West, but Rome has weathered many storms and will weather many more. Peter the Rock will endure and the Catholic Church will continue to exhibit all the signs we profess in the Creed: One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic. It would be a tragedy if you left before you saw this.

Dear Teen Logo,

I think you're meant to be a Melkite!

Alex

Dear Brian,

Yes, but anyone from Florence would have had a veneration for Savonarola, as you know.

It was a matter of some "civic pride" and even though his Cause has been dropped over the years, it has now been reintroduced at Rome again by the Archbishop of Florence.

People always gather at the Piazza where he and two other Dominicans were hanged and burned and May 13th is the day when he is honoured.

Soon after his death, veneration of him went "wild" with medals struck of him, calling him "Blessed" ("Il Beato Girolamo Savonarola") and there is even a painting of St Peter Martyr which really depicts Savonarola himself.

Pope Julius II wished to canonize Savonarola a saint but was dissuaded from doing so because the Medicis were still quite powerful (and would take offense) but also because Jerome had been excommunicated by Pope Alexander VI. How could such be a "Martyr?"

Pope Julius was then said to have responded, "It is the sin itself that pollutes one, not the confession of sin." (ie. the sin of the church authorities that condemned Savonarola)

As you know, St Maximos the Greek of Russia was formerly a disciple of Savonarola and left the Dominican Order to become an Orthodox monk after he saw what happened to his Master. He spent the rest of his days deprecating the West in his writings (and also suffering for his defence of Old Rite practice).

The Dominicans have always promoted his canonization and there were and are Orthodox Christians who honour the memory of Savonarola as a great man of God.

Before he died on November 1, 1944, the Ukrainian Catholic Metropolitan Andrew Sheptytsky was reading a book on Savonarola. He himself actually venerated him highly and wrote to Rome in support of his canonization Cause!

Among the Dominican servants of God, there is, as I see, a contemporary Dominican with the name of "Jerome" which he took for Savonarola whom he always venerated as a saint in private.

Robertz Lentz wrote an icon of St Philip Neri holding a Pomeranian dog - Philip had apparently pilfered it from a Cardinal who wasn't looking after it . . .

I like Pomeranians too!

Alex

Dear Friends,

I would have to disagree with Fr. Deacon Edward to say that the East does indeed require priests to wear a beard as part of the outward appearance of being the "icon of Christ."

St Basil the Great, I believe, once wrote, "When I touch my beard, I know that I am a man."

But the beard represents wisdom and the Grace of God - also symbolized by the fringes and tassels of priestly vestments.

Alex

Amazing!

I've read more postings about beards on this thread than I have ever read before.

And of course, Savonarola. A personal favorite!

Dear Coalesco,

As for beards, St Thomas More, while in prison, grew a long beard.

The day before his martyrdom, he told the gaoler that he had "changed his mind.

The man told the authorities and King Henry VIII was summoned and came personally to see Thomas in prison.

St Thomas meekly looked up at him and said, "Sire, I was going to shave my beard before my execution. But I changed my mind . .."

As he laid his head on the block, More took pains to move his beard away.

"At least this my beard has committed no treason and so deserves not to suffer the axe."

In former times, the beard was a sign, in Eastern Europe, that one was an Orthodox Christian.

Sts. Anthony, John and Eustace of Vilna in Lithuania were martyred because they would not deny their Orthodox Christian faith - they refused, in token of this, to shave their beards.

There is a Catholic society promoting the canonization of Savonarola.

A scholar belonging to that society did some research and discovered (and confirmed) that Savonarola did NOT die in a state of excommunication from the Catholic Church as was previously believed.

He proved, and documented, that the Pope absolved Savonarola from excommunication - something that was read on the scaffold just before the fiery Dominican preacher died.

As you know, Savonarola was placed under heavey iron shoulder pads as he was hanged.

He was then burned as people hurled insults and more tangible missiles at him.

The worst dregs of Florentine society, including prostitutes, then marched in a drunken orgie throughout the streets and invaded his church where they threw dung at his pulpit etc.

Savonarola was acclaimed by his followers as "the Apostle of Florence and the Virginal Martyr."

Alex

Alex, your quote of St. Basil is well taken. Even today some older Hutsul and Boyko people I know still think like St. Basil and feel a man without a beard or at least a mustache isn't really a man and doesn't, well, like girls...

Alex,

When St. John Chrysostom stated that, "the road to Hell was paved with the skulls of bishops," how many of those bishops making up that road to Hell once wore beards?

Joe

Alex,

Yes, you speak of the little "t" tradition of wearing a beard. It is not, however, a requirement -- just a tradition. Now, I'm not suggesting that traditions be tossed out lightly, but I know many priests who do not wear beards (one, at least, because he can't grow one).

Edward, deacon and sinner