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Anthony,

I write this walking on egg shells. But here are my comments regarding what you wrote:

//I grew up in a neighborhood where several of my neighbors were Byzantine Catholic. My childhood best friend was Byzantine Catholic, and that's how I discovered (and eventually became) Byzantine. I would stay over at his house on weekends from time to time, and then go to church with his family. Today all of my Byzantine Catholic friends from childhood now consider themselves to be Roman Catholic. My best friend, who introduced me to this Church and helped me to join it, is now Roman Catholic. Whenever I think about this, it breaks my heart.//

Yup! Prior to the late 1980s, most of my siblings and cousins on my paternal side were attending Byzantine Catholic parishes. Then the scandals came. When that was about over, a majority of my cousins and my brother�s family found a spiritual home in the Latin parishes. (Of course, when scandals broke out in the Latin dioceses, they didn�t leave! Oh well.) Then mandatory celibacy was going to be lifted. Then that idea died a quick death. Former contacts and encouragement disappeared and so did vocations. Regarding my family�s departure from their spiritual home, it basically matched the tragic statistics reflective in the overall attrition rate of the four eparchies. I stand by my original thoughts that the two major watersheds of our church that began an exodus (after the problem of Latinization) were the sex scandals and the celibacy debacle. I believe we have vocations and people who would love to let things continue, but just like a bad neighborhood, one finds exits. When some did intend to return they were told that their kind wasn�t needed. So, they left permanently. At least they can benefit from a 50% discount on the tuition rate at the parochial school my son attends. Then there are those who pay through the nose for their children�s tuition in order to remain Byzantine Catholic. We have no schools, the nuns don�t want to teach anymore, and there are no alternatives that make staying manageable, especially during recessions.

//My wife and I belong to a wonderful parish, full of people with deep faith. But the average age of our parishioners is probably around 65 or higher. The majority of their children, whenever they come to visit, usually belong to Roman parishes. My wife and I are one of the only young couples in the parish. This can be discouraging. And every year our attendance shrinks, and shrinks some more. When are we going to do something about this?//

When younger folks did want to get involved and begin taking part in ministries, many of those church ministries were jealously protected by the older folks. Protectionism ran supreme. I remember witnessing two potential cantors (both in their twenties) wanting to learn and sing. They were eventually squeezed out of any opportunities. I eventually went on a three-year leave of absence because I was simply excluded by the other cantors. Several years later, all those old timers eventually died. The lead cantor never had the benefit of having a regular cantor chant his Parastas/funeral. Parishioners did it because all those who were once willing had left by then. They didn�t know the secret handshake. In all of this, there was no active involvement by clergy to consider the future. What was important was filling the void now and securing retirement. The problem was someone else�s to solve.

//I must respectfully disagree with you on this point. While things may have appeared to be good back then, there must have been something festering under the surface...otherwise an entire generation wouldn't have been so quick to abandon our Church.//

Those children of immigrants began to reach maturity by the 1930s and 40s. Even the celibacy struggle and ensuing schism did not deter church growth. Many of their children were still marrying in the Greek Catholic Church. But many of their first-generation born American children married many Latin Catholics. It would be interesting to see what the actual statistics of inter-ritual marriage was back then compared to other Eastern Catholic Churches. Later, in the mid-1950s, church population reached its peak. From the mid-1950s to 1980, we lost half our church membership. The statistics I provided show a church membership dive from 1990 to 2003 of a whopping 62%. That is almost a two-thirds decline. During this time, we witnessed the founding of more eparchies. I once concluded that the growth rate of episcopal offices was inversely proportional to the decline in church membership. No ECF (Eastern Christian Formation) was able to stall the hemorrhaging. Is it still too early to do an autopsy?

//I think that you identified the problem: we were trying to be more "Roman" than the Roman Catholics. The vast majority of children raised during that period took this to heart, and actually became Roman Catholic. After all, as some of our priests reportedly taught back then, "Catholic is Catholic."//

I believe that this is now becoming the case once again in some parts of our church. Some parishes are advertising in conservative Catholic publications that rosary will be said before each Mass (Divine Liturgy). Is this to attract new members (none dare call it sheep steeling) or a sign of failure in going out to proclaim the Gospel. Here, I agree with Fr. Michael. I think the essence of his concern was prioritization.

//Regarding the burning issue of mandatory celibacy... I've seen the pain that this causes firsthand. My former best friend, whom I previously mentioned, left our Church primarily over this issue. He wanted to become a married priest, and for a time he was told that this was a possibility. When the rug was pulled out from under him, he felt betrayed and left us.//

False promises can hurt company morale.


Joe Thur

I read those statistics! I feel so grieved that we are losing our Eastern Catholics. Where are they all going? I feel like I am losing an arm or something. There�s got to be a way to advertise the East to the West. As it is, I think the West hardly knows the East exists. But perhaps it is not a matter of changing rites. Perhaps Eastern Catholics are being lost not merely to the Latin Tradition, but also to the Orthodox, Protestants, and atheism. I think it is mostly to the Orthodox, since that is who the Eastern Catholics are most in contact with, and there is such a similarity of Tradition. On an Orthodox website I visited several months ago, several on the forum expressed the view that the Orthodox are not bound by the scruples of the Catholic Church. In other words, since the Catholic Church regards the Orthodox as sister Churches, we are forbidden to proselytize among the Orthodox; however, since many Orthodox do not feel the same way, going so far as to call the Catholic Church heretical, there is no complementary respect when it comes to proselytizing. Thus, it seems the Orthodox can never lose numbers to the Catholic Church, but the Catholic Church will constantly be losing her flock to the Orthodox.

I have met several here already who use to be Eastern Catholic, but are now Orthodox. The problem is, we, as Catholics, are bound to see nothing wrong with this at all. The Pope goes so far as to refuse communion with a particular Orthodox body who requests communion with Rome in hopes of a CORPORATE reunion, but we won�t find such scruples from the Orthodox.

I am glad about one thing with regards to the stats, though. Five years ago, a Coptic Catholic friend told me that when he left Egypt �ten years ago,� there were only about 100 Coptic Catholic families left in Egypt. He told me that because they were such a minority, they were fiercely evangelical. I guess their evangelism is bearing fruit � according to the stats. But I think this is occurring partly ALSO because the Catholic Church has developed such a good relationship with the Coptic Orthodox. Thus, there are those in Coptic Orthodoxy who probably do not find it distasteful at all to become Catholic. The same trend can be seen among the Chaldeans and the Armenians.

I think this situation among the Copts and other �Oriental� Catholics explains the loss of Eastern Catholics to Eastern Orthodoxy. The Catholic Church is willing to have a good relationship with Eastern Orthodoxy, and therefore do not mind if some become Eastern Orthodox. However, many Eastern Orthodox do not feel the same way towards the Catholic Church, and would thus not only actively PREVENT her members from becoming Catholic, but also feel free to proselytize among Eastern Catholic.

In Christ always

[QUOTE]Originally posted by J Thur:
[QB] Anthony,

I write this walking on egg shells. But here are my comments regarding what you wrote:

Dear J,
Since the eggs are already broken, you don't have to worry, you can do the Czardas on them!

Both you and Dragani bring up good points. My thoughts on the difficulties with married clergy mainly were centered on the young seminarian in college having to not only study 4 years of theology, but pehaps also 4 years of business administration for a future profession (not that some business savy would be a bad thing). You can get an architectural degree in less time. In other words starting from scratch. A married man already gainfully employed, with the wife and kids, a house and the rest,who is already "settled" and feels the Call to become a priest would have less of a financial impact. That's just the practical "business" side of me coming out which I'm sure could be worked out too.
And what about finding a wife as a seminarian in today's social climate? In the old days our young seminarians at least had priestly families to pick their brides from. They knew what was expected from them and what they were getting themselves in to. These are issues which cannot be glossed over especially when the divorce rate in the US is I believe, still one of 2 marriages floundering. How would a possible divorce affect the faithful or the church? Then the issue with kids who might not like their dad's clerical profession during those terrible teen years or beyond. When one brings these issues to the floor, married clergy could indeed solve the priest shortage, but might not be the panacea it is touted to be. We still are a shrinking church.

//My thoughts on the difficulties with married clergy mainly were centered on the young seminarian in college having to not only study 4 years of theology, but pehaps also 4 years of business administration for a future profession (not that some business savy would be a bad thing). You can get an architectural degree in less time. In other words starting from scratch. A married man already gainfully employed, with the wife and kids, a house and the rest,who is already "settled" and feels the Call to become a priest would have less of a financial impact.//

I would wonder about sending a newly married man to the seminary. But it happens. Yet, in some Eastern Catholic seminaries in Europe, you cannot marry until AFTER seminary studies are completed. You spoke later about finding a wife in today�s climate and children who may not like their father�s profession. Yes, this is not early 20th century America or Eastern Europe where the support was wider. Times and cultures are different. Pani may not be a housewife, but may also have her own profession and career track making six times the salary that a pastor earns. We can sometimes lack consistency when we expect a minimum of five years of marriage and forty years of age for deacons, but not for those destined for priesthood.

//These are issues which cannot be glossed over especially when the divorce rate in the US is I believe, still one of 2 marriages floundering. How would a possible divorce affect the faithful or the church?//

Clerical divorce can be a definite problem and it is one in some jurisdictions. I hear so many clerics become so worried about such a thing. In the meantime, parish vacancies have popped up due to celibate clerics being sent away due to molestations and homosexual activities. What can we say? The past sex scandals in our church has already affected our church. It is probably a major contributing factor why some eparchies lost over half their membership in a decade. You want to see a day-care lose business real fast? Just let all the parents learn about a sex offender working there. Want to see them leave faster? Make it obvious that the employer/owner doesn�t care to deal with the problem appropriately. Some eparchies published an annual report stating in very accountant-like terms that certain lawsuits were being dealt with and that the eparchy feels it will successfully manage to get through. The church promotes an image of a corporation that is trying to fight off legal threats. How can we be worried about divorce rate of married clergy when we don�t have married clergy? We do have celibate clergy and we have had our share of lawsuits there.

//Then the issue with kids who might not like their dad's clerical profession during those terrible teen years or beyond.//

I think this in an unfounded fear learned from watching too many Hollywood-1960s-parent-revolt movies. It�s a job no matter how you cut it. With the affects of divorce all around us in our own neighborhood, son is just happy that Mom and Dad are still together. Who cares what job Daddy has just so he comes home. When I was in the deacon program, my son was very proud. Nor does he have a beef that his dad is a cantor. But he knows that Daddy has to go where he has a future. Children know what it means to have smoke blown up their dandies and what a waste of time it can be. When they are allowed to listen to the parents discuss their day at work or family issues or about the school, they learn early on to give some slack. At my parish, almost all the young men serve at the altar. My son started serving in first grade. It is difficult to knock the clerical profession if one is actively involved in it himself or if she is actively singing in the schola. When a funeral comes up, the children are asked to attend and help out with the singing. Hopefully, if you engage ministry with them and treat them like adults (forget the banner crap and all that talk about them being the future of the church), they will respect what they do. If you chase them away because some old folk is protective of his turf, then they might just stay away. Religion at that parish is for the gray hairs and their senior citizen club.

//When one brings these issues to the floor, married clergy could indeed solve the priest shortage, but might not be the panacea it is touted to be. We still are a shrinking church.//

Many parishes cannot afford a celibate priest!

Joe

J Thur,

Glory To Jesus Christ!

I know this is WAY off topic but I have been praying for you that you find a job. Please let us know when that happens so I can stop praying.

Your friend in Christ...

Sometimes I hesitate to say things because I haven't been a BC all of my life. But then I've been one for almost 4 years. Moreover, I was a Pastor for 27 so I think I will say something. I hope it is provacative. If not I'll try harder next time.

Fear cripples. When you all stop crying wolf maybe we can get on with something. Your implied fear of married clergy, your fear of offending some person real or imagined, your fear of growing or not growing a beard, is all damaging to the Church.

Most spouses now work outside the home in some capacity. That brings in money to the family. The cost to the parish is minimal. Some of the worried talk seems laughable to me.

We have two sons. Both are now adults. Despite the nastiness of some of my assignments my sons both are very devout Christian young men. Your fear of what children will do is naive and almost laughable.

Stop sweating so much. Do some door to door visitation. Challenge each other to bring your friends and associates to the closest thing to heaven any of us will find before our physical deaths. Priests, Deacons, Cantors do what's right and don't be afraid of stuffy members. Offer the best Divine Liturgy you know.

Build it, and if we invite, they will come. But stop the damnable worrying! :rolleyes:

Dan Lauffer

Joe,

Reading your posts about the members only/secret handshakes etc. makes me think you must belong to a parish near me. Same game different place! LOL

Looking at the Ruthenian numbers, I believe the 1990 numbers must have been grossly exaggerated to to begin with, and now it just looks twice as bad on paper.

Our church memberships were at their maximum in and around the 1910's to 1920's. Families had 6, 7, maybe even 10 kids. They grew up and had families post WWII that were generally much smaller in size, and part of that post war Shed My Ethnicity mode.
What happened to those large numbers in the 1960's? Most of the parents of those large families were dying off. What happened through the 70's and 80's? Those large families of 6 to 10 kids were now in their 60's and 70's and...dying off. Their children, smaller in numbers and now interchangeable RC's were gone. Our schools were gone, and we as 'church' were still trying to come up with a solid identity.

While we were still confused, we managed to pick up unhappy post Vatican 2 RC's, but we also managed to lose many in an increasingly Godless society. How long can we remain confused, and how many people join and stick around in a group that is confused as to who it is/where it is going?? All we seem to know is where we've been-past history!

As for our identity crisis- this irks me. The 'Bridge' theory sounds good, but in reality I am more and more believing in the 'Hybrid" theory.
When people can and do easily jump churches, why stay in a 'hybrid' when you can go straight to the 2 larger groups of -Orthodox or ROMAN.

In hindsight, our identity crisis hurt us. It seems as though the school closings to save $$ were a mistake. The lack of a centralized program of education-any education- hurt us. We just didn't take that "Leap of Faith" that many non denominational churches seem to take. We convinced ourselves we were secure when we weren't. Pride? Not needing any one else to join but our own small circle? Who knows?

We need stong leadership to lay out the facts and tell the bodies in the pews what is happening. Then we need to make hard decisions.


Something to think about-statistics show the Spanish population is growing rapidly in our country. These as a rule have always been spiritual, church loving people. Many first generation immigrants have the same need for community as our first generation parents did. To grab this group of people, though it might mean changing and learning, would be a great boost!
Can we break out of our old molds?

Just more thoughts,
gotta sign off now,
sam

You mean, I wasn't provacative enough???

Alright,

1. How many of you have canvassed your neighborhoods to invite people to your Churches?

2. How many of you have gone to a Chamber of Commerce Event and "manned" a booth for your Church?

3. How many of you have created a newspaper for your Church to be distributed to your city or to a portion of it?

4. How many of you have been a greeter at your Church door to welcome people as they come in?

5. How many of you have invited your students, fellow workers, or family members to your Church?

6. How many of you have shared a message of salvation with anyone?

Dan Lauffer

PS Is that provacative enough?

VERY sound advice indeed. Three Cheers for this post!

Michael

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Speaking as a new member, I don't know if this will help but I have a few ideas on the decline of the BCC. The church is way below critical mass for a country of this size. It is basically mission territory for us and has always been so.

There are parts of this country where you could drive 100 miles in any direction, ANY direction, and not find a Byzantine Catholic church. In 2003 we have an economy that could easily require a working person to change regions at least once in their lives, modern corporations expect it. The only area I know of that may have a saturation of temples is in or about Pennsylvania.

We have all sent our kids away to school when possible, to get the best education. Those that don't take on an entrepreneurial profession like Dentistry, Medicine or Law will be forced to look for work from the corporations that dominate this economy. My company is always recruiting people from out of state and overseas.

Setting aside for the moment the possibility that the numbers may be (or may have been in the past) mis-stated, I am not surprised there has been a rapid decline in membership of the church, it coincides with the transformation of the economy.

We can not be the ghetto church of the past, because people are moving everywhere, but we have not built up a matrix of parishes across the country to serve them where they go. In which case attending a Catholic church of another jurisdiction might make sense for the individual, if they are interested.

But you know, our people in the pews don't really give a damn as long as they still have a priest. When the priest is gone they will care a lot about it but it will be too late.

Dan Lauffer is right, it is time to start ringing doorbells. As to targeting different ethnic groups or economic strata that is a marketing decision that the evangelization committee (you and me) will have to decide. But we shouldn't expect the new members to have the same appreciation for Old Slavonic that Momma has. And it has got to be alright with us.

Michael, that sinner

It was suggested to me that possibly the decline was due to Met Judson's demands that parishes report their actual membership numbers instead of contrived numbers during his tenure, effectively leading to a diminished number on the books.

anastasios

I think Dan has hit it right on. I get so frustrated with my parish, because all they do is try and go to R.C. events, confrences, parishes, etc. to tell them about us. Frankly, who cares? If we get out there with the message of salvation as we know it in the Byzantine Church, the R.C.'s will have no choice but to know that we are and who we are. The more we pull in, the more help (clergy) we will get, which will prevent us from becoming mega-churches and losing that unique Eastern closeness so many feel in our parishes.

The problems in shrinking numbers in the Byzantine Church cannot be solely attributed to scandals, marriage, dying, ethnocentricity, secular culture, etc., because if you look at the Antiochian Archdiocese and the OCA, you see quite the opposite, and especially with regards to the OCA you have a similar Church make-up traditionally. I believe I heard recently that in both jurisdictions roughly half the clergy are converts!

We need to get out there. Where are the Byzantine Catholic Scott Hahns, Franky Shaeffers, Fr. Peter Gilquists, Fr. John Corapis, Khouriya Frederica Matthews-Green? I would say that the work Fr. Michael and his partner (Fr. John?) is one huge step in the right direction , but two priests an evangelical Church does not make. Also, as Dan points out so well, this need not be a mass media type thing. It takes us evangelising individuals in our lives, with the same Spirit that filled the Apostles and Sts. Cyril and Methodius in us. We must be as authentically Byzantine as possible, go out to the world, and let that Gladsome Light shine!!

Justin

Dan makes good suggestions but I must point out one that I don't agree with. The OCA recently held an evangelization conference, they cited a study on the relative success of different evangelization methods and door to door was the least succesful and most likely to ensure the people don't come. The majority of people do not like strangers coming to their homes. I think in large part the Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormon's have ruined this method and the uninformed (the majority) are going to see any Church that does this in the same light. On the otherhand a very successful method is the leaving of a well done brochure on the doorknob.

In Christ,
Subdeacon Lance

Regarding outreach to Latin Catholics: There is nothing wrong with it. Unfortunately, the Latin Church is full of Catholics who, because of the size of the parish, abuses in the Liturgy, or unfaithfullness to Church teaching among the clergy and cathechists, are in spiritual danger. Offering them a home in the Byzantine Church, provided they are committed to becoming Byzantine Christians, is our duty. This is not sheep stealing becasue it is preventing them from being lost.

In Christ,
Subdeacon Lance

Anastasios,

This might be so. But that would imply our bishops for being liars akin to Enron executives.

A study was done by a university on the 20+ Orthodox jurisdictions recently. All their numbers were grossly inflated too.

So, if the numbers reported to Rome and the Catholic Directory were always erroneous, what does that have to say about those doing the reporting? Why the inflationary numbers?

Joe