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Dear Father,
I am rather late with my weak response to your opening post as I have been away, but feel the need to respond anyway.
I believe after following the threads on Byzcath.org for several years that the good people here are all active in their parishes and all trying to evangelize and bring in more people. What they talk about 'amongst themselves' is small in comparison to the work they do in the real world. This happens to be a place to communicate with like minds.

In many of our parishes there are the few thinkers (seen here) and the larger group of people who shuffle in and shuffle out of Liturgy, with little knowledge of why. Being around awhile, I can see the numbers dwindling. The problem I've found is that no matter how good a witness you may be in your larger community, face it- nobody is banging on our doors to come in.

There is little interest in belonging to mainstream organized religion out there, unless they have a school that will educate their children, social standing in the community, great sports teeams, etc.

On the other hand, unorganized independent groups such as "True Church of The Real God In The Mountains" which offers self help groups, parenting classes, free babysitting, exercise classes, etc. seems to be packed full of people who have left multiple other organized denominations.

My point is that it seems as though what drives people to seek community in a church has little to do with liturgical life,etc. and more with getting temporal needs met. We can scoff ath this all we want, but the fact remains many of "Our People" built parishes based on similar temporal needs, finding God along the way, and perhaps cleaning up their acts over time.

As for Msgr. Stim- ahhh, when men were men. As abrasive as he was, you will never know how many people he aided over and above the external persona. This is what made the difference. Sadly, many of our priests today are built of some other fabric. There is little going on in many of our parishes, minus funeral luncheons and fundraisers. The people in the pews have a median age of 60!
In addition there seems to be at times that attitude of superiority, as if the only ones that are permitted in are those Perfected in their Faith. All others must 'want something' therefore are not fully welcomed, or must take years to prove they really want to be Byz. Catholic. With "our People" this could mean decades.

We can't afford to keep playing the blame game. The clergy and lay people have to break these old attitudes and work together to 'grow', but in order to do that we have to first take a good look around and ADMIT to each other we are sinking fast.

Thanks for hearing me out,
Sam

Per Annuario Pontificio: The Eastern Catholic Churches.

Eastern Catholic Church....2000........2003..%+/-

Albanian Byzantine.........2,474.......2,800....+13%
Coptic......................197,878.....216,990...+10%

Chaldean...................322,266.....343,501....+7%
Syro-Malabar...........3,400,093...3,588,172...+6%
Slovak Greek..............211,044.....221,331....+5%
Melkite Greek...........1,251,300...1,295,061...+3%
Ethiopian...................201,549.....205,999....+2%
Armenian...................362,047.....369,297....+2%

Greek Byzantine.............2,340.......2,345.......0%
Bulgarian Byzantine.......15,000......15,000......0%
Hungarian Byzantine....278,000.....278,000......0%

Greek (~Yugoslavia)......48,775......48,174.....-1%
Maronite.................3,124,086...3,083,754....-1%
Italo-Albanian Byz.........61,563.......60,548....-2%
*Ruthenian Byzantine...662,820.....610,668....-8%

Syro-Malankara...........446,220.....395,476...-11%
Ukrainian Greek........5,159,633...4,366,131...-15%
Syrian......................137,166.....112,849....-18%
Romanian Greek........1,390,610.....752,500...-46%

TOTAL...................17,274,864..15,968,596...-8%


*Ruthenian Byzantines (USA): 2000 - 2003
USA jurisdictions..........2000........2003...%+/-
Pittsburgh...............75,261......60,686...-19%
Passaic..................51,771......24,504...-53%
Parma....................12,680......12,482....-2%
Van Nuys..................3,108.......3,016....-3%

*Ruthenian Byzantines (USA): 1990 - 2003
USA jurisdictions..........1990........2003...%+/-
Pittsburgh..............143,784......60,686...-58%
Passaic..................85,050......24,504...-71%
Parma....................22,202......12,482...-44%
Van Nuys.................17,125.......3,016...-82%

After reading all of the posts, one thing is clear. Some just don�t get it. Except the post above this one from Sam. He has touched upon a reality that has largely gone unnoticed, namely the "secular church" boom. Non-denominational, and pretty much non-descript but packing them in. And yes, Sam, sometimes I feel like we're rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.
But regarding my original post, I stand by what I said.
After reading it, some reverted to the �killing the messenger� tactic, or at least questioning the depth of my spirituality. That hurt. But let me say this. I always question the depth of my spirituality myself every time I pray, because it can never be deep enough. Some, I guess don�t want to be confused with the facts. First, it�s not about beards. And no matter what anyone says, there is no correlation to the depth of one's holiness and the length of one's facial hair. If I thought that would make me holier, or be the answer to our church�s problems I�d grow one down to the floor!
An interesting conundrum we are faced with, and a few posters did get it right.
First about �externals.� Let�s be reminded what Jesus said in MT chapter 21. He castigates the Pharisees for their outward piety, but inward duplicity. Jesus warns us to be careful to not put external appearances of holiness ahead of internal ones. While it makes for great fodder for this forum, the externals of our church, while important in our worship experience, will not bring people in to our faith or our churches unless they see inward holiness and piety, you know, goodness, charity, love, within our faithful coupled with those externals. They (externals) have to change us, make us better persons, different in the observer�s eyes, because we desire to be like Christ, Christlike, and if the rites of worship (the externals) help us, then, we are on to something, which brings me back to my original post.
The frustration of many priests, including myself, has always been the �casualness� with which too many of our members approach their church commitment. And in other instances, the seemingly seamless way many life-long Byzantine Greek Catholics can pack up and join either a Roman Catholic or Orthodox church, or the church of what's happening now for that matter, and not always for the reasons of deeper spirituality. Think of all the old timers in your churches and ask yourself this question: How many of their children, great grandchildren, or relatives are Byzantine Catholic today? An even better question would be not why they left but how could they simply walk away from their church so easily. That would be an interesting study to make. But that aside, the reasons run the gamut. It could be because of prestige or pettiness. Many times people leave because �they�ve made it� in society and to them, our churches seem quaintly out of date, good for grandma way back when, but not for the rich and famous of today. Sometimes they leave because they didn�t get their way, or our church was too far out of their way; in other words because of convenience.
I have rarely heard of anyone ever leaving our particular church because they were seeking a deeper spirituality! Sometimes our spirituality (services, length, etc.) seems overwhelming to those of different experiences. We must be sensitive to that too.
But we have an interesting conundrum, which needs to be discussed. There was a time long ago, when we (Greek Catholics) needed to feel accepted in this country so it was done by making ourselves more Roman Catholic than the Roman Catholics!
Now we are to believe that we need to be more like the Orthodox, and so some have decided that we should out-Orthodox the Orthodox! Should the pendulum swing so far back to the Orthodox side of things that we really have no need to be who �we� are? Who are we? One priest said once that we know who we are, we're "mixed up!" Sad but true. But I think that we are the best thing for the Catholic Church, albeit also the best kept secret. Why? It's not only because our church makes the Church truly whole, the �both lungs� concept Pope John Paul II speaks of.
Butthat we bring �choice� to the Catholic Church. The choice of what? Spirituality. Church life. Parish life. The one time choice is good I guess. But people will not know they have these choices unless we do more walking than talking as I said in my original post, and some may know that I have walked the walk and will continue to do it. (Hopefully with more EWTN programing). That evangelization and outreach is invaluable, criticism of its content notwithstanding.

Winning souls for Christ is what we all should do. Making Catholics (and others) aware of the choices in spirituality within the Universal Church is everyone's calling. Yes, we should return to our �true� patrimony, but we should not supplant it with someone else�s and think that all problems will go away and people will flock back to our churches filling them like they were in the 50's and 60's.
And yes, I like to �harken back� to the good old days because, well they were. Our churches were full, First Communion classes had hundreds not handfuls, look at your home parish�s pictures of people filling the front steps of your churches or your auditoriums back then. Mother's Clubs, Men's Clubs, Sodality, Rosary Society, Catholic School children. Criticize what you will, but they were doing something right. We, all of us, need to do something right again by remembering that we have our own heritage, and it�s not Roman nor Orthodox. What is it? Undoubtedly, that will always be open to discussion here and elsewhere.

The great football coach Vince Lombardi would always go back to basics when his team was losing. He would simply hold up the football to the team in the locker room at half-time and say: Gentlemen, "This is a football..." and then explain the basics of the game lest they somehow forgot during the first half. As a priest for 25 years next year, I too have had to hold something up and explain the "basics" to my parishioners lest they forgot. It wouldn't be a football but the cross of Our Lord. That's the true object of all of this isn't it?

Fr. Michael,

I think there is a general rejection of institutional religion overall. Today's generation seems to have a lack of trust in it. Scandals involving pedophilia also knows how to chop big numbers out of the population statistics too.

And mind you ... the Ruthenian Catholic Church had a high inter-ritual marriage rate with Latin Catholics compared to other Eastern Churches. Who was the spiritual teacher in these families? Most times, it was the mother who only taught what she knew: Latin Catholicism. Our fathers and uncles didn't know much religion and handed the reigns over to the mothers of our children. So, when the children grew up, nobody, especially papa, will convince them to remain. The 'Greek Catholic Father' had nothing much to say about God and wasn't about to argue about it with Mama. He simply showed up for the weddings and gave away his daughter like chattle. His lips remained shut while Mama dressed her little girls for First Communion and made such a fuss.

When it came time to decide on a church, the children only went where they were convinced to go and were made to feel welcome: another church besides the one that many Latin mothers were forced to join and marry in because of Canon Law. A great dormant regret raises its head only to shuttle the young'uns elsewhere. Mama got back!

One of the greatest failures in feedback is our church surveying remaining members. I remember one such eparchial census/survey that asked why people stay. Nobody ever asks the people who left why they left. The statistics I reference above tell an awfully sad tale. Any CEO who sees his products take such nose-dives as the membership totals in the Ruthenian Church aught to be screaming for answers. I did a count on clergy age for our four jurisdictions and found that the median age was 60. How secure of a job would you think you would have if you began work at a company where most of the employees were in their sixties?

One can't take anything seriously that doesn't take itself seriously. If I interview with a potential employer and the representative doesn't really know the business he or she is in, then I have more questions. If the company sells products that isn't theirs, then that is another issue. If I attend a restaraunt and the cooks tell me not to eat there, then I really wonder.

Two major watershed events hit our church that almost killed us, and I run the risk by pointing them out here. But here it goes:

First, the issue of sexual scandals and how miserably it was handled in some eparchies. This scared away many dangling remnants. Those families who had Latin spouses were finally convinced to go elsewhere.

Second, the issue of announcing the end to mandatory celibacy and then immediately taking it back. This probably hurt and discouraged many would be vocations. In turn, our church became a source bed for Orthodox vocations.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by J Thur:
[QB] Fr. Michael,


"Two major watershed events hit our church that almost killed us, and I run the risk by pointing them out here. But here it goes:

First, the issue of sexual scandals and how miserably it was handled in some eparchies. This scared away many dangling remnants. Those families who had Latin spouses were finally convinced to go elsewhere.

Second, the issue of announcing the end to mandatory celibacy and then immediately taking it back. This probably hurt and discouraged many would be vocations. In turn, our church became a source bed for Orthodox vocations."

Dear "J",
The scandals may have caused some people to have second thoughts about the Church as a whole, but we have been losing people long before that. Your thoughts on parenting and the upbringing of children are true. When our churches closed our schools, so went many a future parish member. You got to get them when they're young. They may leave during their rebellious stage, but when they have kids of their own, that's when you see them coming back IF they had good memories of their church, and if one is where they've moved to.....etc.

I know why you have some trepidation about also mentioning the "c" word, namely celibacy. Some may see that concept as if it was the "silver bullet;" the answer to filling our beautiful seminary building in Pittsburgh. While it is easy to promote married clergy in theory, it's another thing to actually be able to afford it in practice. By that I mean it takes money, a lot of it to raise a family. No parish could afford to have one, let alone two priests with a family to support. One could ask the parishioners to double or triple their contributions to support their priest's family. Not sure how that would go over.
Then there's issues like housing, health insurance, college, etc. For celiback to work, a married priest would have to hold down a full time job or a very well paying part time one to support a family. The wife may even have to work as well. And what about living quarters. Can you imagine two priests' families under one roof? Two ladies of the house in the kitchen? I could go on but you see the point. The majority of Orthodox priests have "real" jobs too, and many have wives that also work. The Orthodox priest in town works full time for a engineering firm. So as long as priests are willing to hold down a full time job which would help pay for the housing, healtcare, and education of his family, then being married is fine. Otherwise celibacy only sounds good in theory only.

Dear Fr. Michael,

Actually, I did "get it" -- but choose not to respond. In this case, however, I feel I should respond.

Of course, I respond from the perspective of a Melkite and not a Ruthenian, so it may be necessary to take my comments with a grain of salt.

I think the root question you ask is "who are we?" All else stems from how that is answered. In each generation this question has been asked, and generally not answered. Fr. Andrew Greely writing in The Catholic Myth speaks of "cultural Catholics" -- those who claim the name Catholic because they are "comfortable" with that identification, because the like the rituals and feel a connection. Yet they may or may not be really Catholic. This applies to virtually all Christian organizations today.

The mega-churches that "pack 'em in" preach a Christianity-Lite -- it's less filling, but it's also less demanding.

You and I are called to preach the real thing. We are called to make demands on ourselves and, in doing so, modeling what is expected of our people.

The Melkite Church is proud of its identity as a bridge between the Orthodox and the Catholic Churches. We are proud to have returned to our heritage because roots are powerful. Without a tap-root there is no nourishment that flows and the tree dies. Our heritage is that tap-root.

You are correct -- we bring "choice" to the Church. We offer a different spirituality, a bunch of different ways to worship (beyond the smells and bells), and we offer a different way of being Church.

Yes, cultural heritage plays an unthinking role in who we are. My Arab parishioners don't think about being Melkite, they are Melkite. For them it's not an issue. Yet, underlying that, is a more important question -- are they Christian? Or has Church devolved to being an Arabic club where they can come and socialize with other Arabs? The answer is that it is both -- and that's neither good nor bad.

Perhaps, then, the question we should be asking is this -- how do we most authentically be Church? What is the function of a priest? A deacon? A cantor? is it to be a functionary? I don't think so. Yes, it can be frustrating -- but that may also indicate that we've taken on a role that's not ours. The story is told of Pope John XXIII (who, as a young priest, often celebrated the Divine Liturgy with a Melkite priest -- Fr. Mardeli). Apparently his prayer before going to bed always included this line: "Dear God, it's Your Church, I'm going to bed."

In the end we are to water, to weed, to nurture, but we don't make the flower grow -- that's God's role.

Edward, deacon and sinner

Dear Fr. Michael,

I agree we are our own Church.We do have a critical shortage of Clergy though.I believe its not the total answer but restoring the tradition of married Clergy in our Church will help ease the burden of 1 Priest overseeing multiple parishes and ultimately preserve the Church.For some reason men are not embracing a celibate priesthood for the past 30+ years. Is it wise to wait for that tide turn? I also agree secularism does play a large part. The uneducated penniless people who came here from Eastern Europe built the Churches here in this country.We may more sophisticated and educated then Grandma & grandpa but if we had their serious commitment what Churches we would have. But I tell you Fr.some of the most dedicated people to our Church are the very same people who post on this forum. Please don't be so hard on us.


Nicky's Baba

Ah, this reminds me of an old news story on the BBC.

Stuffy robes ruin marriage chances, say Greek priests.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/185788.stm

Yes, if we are going to have married priest then beards are going to be a problem.

//So as long as priests are willing to hold down a full time job which would help pay for the housing, healtcare, and education of his family, then being married is fine. Otherwise celibacy only sounds good in theory only.//

Fr. Michael,

This assumes that ONLY the priest works FULL-TIME and can get benefits. Yet, women do work and do attain benefits. I am currently unemployed and my wife�s benefits fill in the void just fine. I would say that one decisive factor in allowing married men to fill our seminary is whether their spouse/wife is gainfully employed and with benefits. The �financially independent� factor in vocations might be a MUST. Just follow the money. Finally, the Church will consider the voice and support of our women because they might be the only ones helping their priestly husband pay the bills. You are correct that supporting a married priest and his family might be a financial burden that parishes, especially the majority of our Ruthenian parishes, cannot carry. But tell that to the people whose bishops paid out millions of dollars for lawsuits involving pedophile clergy. Both alternatives have their financial liabilities. Considering the statistics I presented above, assuming that the numbers our eparchies gave to Rome were correct (and I have every reason to believe that they are), then the financial factor will become the Number One priority even more so. Volunteerism or unmercenary ministry may creep upward to the clerical level (i.e., the diaconate). Take it from us cantors - we've been doing it for quite a while and you all may have to get used to it. How's your resume looking?

Just a refresher course in statistics:

*Ruthenian Byzantines (USA): 1990 - 2003
USA jurisdictions..........1990........2003...%+/-
Pittsburgh..............143,784......60,686...-58%
Passaic..................85,050......24,504...-71%
Parma....................22,202......12,482...-44%
Van Nuys.................17,125.......3,016...-82%

Joe Thur

Is there any indication of how much of this loss is due to attrition (people leaving our churches) rather than deaths far outnumbering baptisms?

I have only read the first two pages of this thread, and I am probably beating a dead horse (as usual), but I must say I was absolutely horrified by the reactions some had to FathersJS� statements - not in the content per se, but in the attitude to one who has served Christ for 25 years in the ministry. I thought Easterners had more respect for priests than that. I guess, despite the resistance, the Western mentality HAS successfully invaded the Eastern Church.

Dear francisg,
You are correct about the respect thing. I would never think of addressing a priest that way, but we do live in a different time and place.
It seems that unless you stay within the bounds of the "mutual admiration society" and refrain from bringing up unpleasant points, you are seen as being too hard hearted. Again, what did Our Lord say? I have not come to bring peace but the sword, and put you at odds with others..."(I am paraphrasing here)
If we can't face the serious problems within our own church who will? As I already said, we cannot only talk the talk but walk the walk, and everyone, especially on this forum from the administrator on down cares about our future. All I'm saying is that we cannot be distracted with only the "smells and bells" of our church and not evangilization, and we have to face the reality of our time and place here in the USA, and not think that we can have the same church life that existed in Europe many years ago. We can't. We like every other church or institution have to adapt. Otherwise we are the Church's best kept secret by choice not by design, and we will become a "one brief shining moment" footnote in its history.

Father Michael,

This has been a very interesting discussion for me to read, and I thank you for bringing all of this out into the open. The numbers posted by Joe are shocking. Honestly, I would never have guessed that things were THAT bad. But they are, and we better nuckle down and deal with it.

I grew up in a neighborhood where several of my neighbors were Byzantine Catholic. My childhood best friend was Byzantine Catholic, and that's how I discovered (and eventually became) Byzantine. I would stay over at his house on weekends from time to time, and then go to church with his family. Today all of my Byzantine Catholic friends from childhood now consider themselves to be Roman Catholic. My best friend, who introduced me to this Church and helped me to join it, is now Roman Catholic. Whenever I think about this, it breaks my heart.

My wife and I belong to a wonderful parish, full of people with deep faith. But the average age of our parishioners is probably around 65 or higher. The majority of their children, whenever they come to visit, usually belong to Roman parishes. My wife and I are one of the only young couples in the parish. This can be discouraging. And every year our attendance shrinks, and shrinks some more. When are we going to do something about this?

I must respectfully disagree with you on this point. While things may have appeared to be good back then, there must have been something festering under the surface... otherwise an entire generation wouldn't have been so quick to abandon our Church. I think that you identified the problem: we were trying to be more "Roman" than the Roman Catholics. The vast majority of children raised during that period took this to heart, and actually became Roman Catholic. After all, as some of our priests reportedly taught back then, "Catholic is Catholic."

Yet we do share deep common roots with the Orthodox, and it seems to me that for too long we denied this fact. In trying to be "ourselves," aka NOT Orthodox, we abandoned a great deal of what makes us special and unique. I do believe that we are on the right track in rediscovering our common heritage with the Orthodox, while not falling into the trap of blind imitation.

Regarding the burning issue of mandatory celibacy... I've seen the pain that this causes firsthand. My former best friend, whom I previously mentioned, left our Church primarily over this issue. He wanted to become a married priest, and for a time he was told that this was a possibility. When the rug was pulled out from under him, he felt betrayed and left us.

While restoring the married priesthood won't solve all of our problems, it will go a long way in solving our number one problem: our identity, or lack thereof. What the heck are we? I've found my peace in considering myself to be an Eastern Christian in communion with Rome. But if we are an Eastern Church, as we claim to be, why can't married men become priests? Once this issue is resolved, it will go a long way in establishing our identity.

Finally, I want to thank you Father Michael for your ministry and tireless work in evangelization. You are a priceless gem in our Church, and I wish that we had a hundred more priests with your zeal to spread the Gospel.

Thank you,
Anthony

How can these statistics be correct?
I'm in the Van Nuys Eparchy, and the above stats show our Eparchy has decreased 82 percent in 13 years???

How can this be????????

Please, Lord, say it is not so!!!!!!!!!

Oh, oh, maybe the stats mean we have 82 per cent of the people we had in 1990. That's better than down 82% or we have 18% of the people we had in 1990.

It's raining here today!! THE ANGELS ARE CRYING!!

Okay, we are athletes for Christ. We are His. What can we do?
We can be 100% Christian -- we can be the Light of Christ in our world.

All 22 of the Eastern Catholic Churches need more holy priests, monks and nuns. Let us strive to be saints in our corner of the world. God has His plans -- He knows what He is doing.