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Well, I wonder if we were in their shoes under a Stalinist regime especially that of the 1930's with most in Gulag or killed, we would not have done the same?
Most of us are not martyrs and as the character of St Thomas More says in "A Man for All Seasons" "our natural business lies in escaping"
I cannot judge those Hierarchs.

Dear Brian,

Agreed!

I'm just trying to counter Linus' claim that the Pope would kiss a copy of "Das Kapital."

He is Orthodox and he should know that the sad history of the Soviet Yoke over Orthodoxy is one in which there are martyrs and collaborators - as would be the case with any Christians.

Perhaps I shouldn't have made the comparison and apologise if it was out of context.

Do you think the Pope's kissing the Koran showed he would be willing to kiss anything, including "Das Kapital?"

What do you think of Linus' sense of respect toward the Pope?

Alex

Dear Linus,

I apologise to you for my allusion to the Orthodox Church under Soviet communism.

I should not have said that.

And I think you should not have made your comment about the Pope kissing Das Kapital.

At least not on a Catholic board. There are plenty of Orthodox boards where such a comment may be welcome - I know of some myself

On a lighter note, when Lenin died, he went to hell.

The devil rang up Karl Marx and told him, "Get ready - here comes the 'interest' on your "Kapital."

Alex

Greetings Everyone,

I was told once that in the middle east it was customary for a person receiving a gift to kiss the gift as a sign of gratitude and respect. It was my understanding that this was what the Holy Father was caught on camera doing.

Perhaps there is someone on this forum who is familiar with middle eastern customs that could shed some light on this possibility.

Pax.

ex Nihilo- That indeed may have been so. The act also would have been defensible in my view as honoring the truth that is in the Koran: that God is One, revealed himself to Abraham and the prophets, that Christ was born of a Virgin, that this world will end and all men will be judged. Though evangelizing Muslims is notoriously difficult, there are a lot of things one does not have to convince them about. The kiss does NOT mean honoring the error in the Koran. It seems to me the world is full of people -especially on the Internet- who are eager to put anything the Pope does in the worst possible light, violating every law of charity.

Me: a year and a half away from a high school diploma!!

Let's not compare, please. Extensive schooling doesn't make one closer to God. Some of the greatest saints had little or no schooling. "For He will exalt the lowly."

Wow, I could write The Imitation of Christ Part II!

Logos Teen

Dear Teen Logo,

You are still in high school?

Now, who would have thought that?!

Alex

Dear Daniel n,

Two exemplary posts in one day!

I think the Administrator should enroll you in some sort of internet honour!

The Redemptorist missionary among the Protestants, St Clement Hofbauer, was once to have said, "The Germans became Protestants because they wanted to live as Christians."

And yet the Church canonized him!

Alex

May God and all of His Saints preserve us from the terrors of governments like those.

I don't know that I could persevere.

Michael

Alex- Two compliments in one day! You mean all it took for you to recognize my inherent brilliance and logic was to agree with you a couple of times? I'll have to try it more often...

Logos Teen Garrettt- I agree; indeed I have always found academics with a lot of initials behind their names a bit dull witted...I am degreed, but most of what I know is due to self-education, not classwork [though the occasional gifted teacher is a blessing to the mind and soul].
-daniel n, zzz

Re: kissing the Koran and such stuff...

Even though I've a pretty high view of the role of the papacy in the Church that doesn't mean that I don't wish:

that the Filioque had not been inserted into the Latin form of the Creed, or

that John Paul had not done what he did with the Koran, or

that the ordination of married men in the Eastern Catholic Churches had not been restricted, or

that Pope Honorius had been a bit more careful in his correspondence, or

other such (IMO) imprudent decisions had not been made.

I'm sure there are various rationales for such things and not all of these are on the same level. I tend to think the Koran affair was not meant to imply anything other than a form of courtesy. IMO the scandal it's caused has outweighed the courtesy that was given. But, then, who am I? I'm just a layman.

None of the above has anything to do with papal infallibility, however.

David Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

Dear Daniel n,

Actually, whether you agreed with me or not, your posts expressed ideas much better than I could and brought forth insights that had not occurred to me.

Alex

Dear Dave,

Yes, the kissing of the Koran is a controversial issue, however one looks at it.

But it was meant as a sign of courtesy and respect.

But for the Orthodox Churches that suffered under the Turkish Yoke - they are only too aware how even having something like a set of Muslim prayer beads on one's person was enough to be brought before a Muslim court and accused of blaspheming Islam or the Prophet - since having the beads meant one was a Muslim and not a Christian any longer.

More New Martyrs were made that way!

To become a Muslim, one need only recite the first part of the Koran: "There is no god but Allah . . .etc."

Islam is the most unecumenical religion in history, to be sure.

Alex

Logos Teen:

Did you mean to say: Beware of the man with more degrees than the thermometer!?

AmdG