www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Marriage b/w OC and RC

Hello,
I am a graduate student, and attend a university OCF group. It is pleasant. Sometimes we have guest priests visit to perform liturgies. Tonight I went and came home upset. There was a discussion about relationships with non-orthodox. I asked the priest if it would be completely wrong of me to attend a byzantine catholic church. He said absolutely. I am not even engaged yet, but my long term RC boyfriend and I (I'm eastern orthodox christian) talk about these things. We thought attending that kind of church would be a good compromise. I know it's still not an orthodox service, but honestly, I do not have a problem with attending that church. Plus, we have agreed that it would be good to be an example of the two churches reuniting, by us making the interfaith marriage work. However, the priest tonight did not seem to be of that mindset. I don't understand it. I also don't understand why some priests take that stance, while I, along with my boyfriend, have found documents, articles and statements encouraging the union of the 2 religions, as well as advice on how priests can counsel the 2 people in the marriage (specifically for OC and RC). Two of the documents came from "Standing Conference of the Canonical Orthodox Bishops in the Americas" and "The North American Orthodox-Catholic Theological Consultation", and the statement was titled "An agreed statement on mixed marriages". I was very discouraged tonight. The priest said it would be a sin for me to attend a byzantine catholic church. Please offer suggestions, advice, documents, anything that can help me understand the inconsistencies among priests and also that support such an interfaith marriage. By the way, we also agreed that children would be raised catholic.

Dear JKY,

Unfortunately, many of our Orthodox priests take a very hard stand on anything which leads them to believe that you will leave Orthodoxy.

I am not a priest, but I really don't think that your decision constitutes a 'sin'.

This situation and the subsequent distress it has brought you is why we need unity soon!

May God bless your upcoming marriage, and my humble advice would be to just try to be the best, most prayerful, most observant and devoutly humble Christian of whatever lung of Christ's church you and your fiancee decide to follow. Pray and worship regularly with your husband and keep Christ in your marriage and future family. That is what is most important. I know of so, so many who are hung up on their faith identity without putting any effort, thought, or care into what it really means to be a Christian.

In Christ,
Alice

Of course active and informed Byzantine Catholics are nice enough not to proselytise individual Orthodox and do want eventual church union with the Orthodox churches but ISTM you already have decided what to do and want affirmation which naturally you'll find here.

As narrow and hurtful as that priest sounded (and from the Byzantine Catholic POV he was just that), of course there's a logic to all that considering his church's one-true-church claim as Alice alluded to: of course he doesn't want you to leave because according to his lights, the teaching of his church, he's concerned about your soul. And as he is part of a small ethnic denomination that routinely loses its young second-, third-, etc.-generation members to moving and intermarriage (BCs lose people for similar reasons) his defensiveness is understandable.

But if you've agreed to raise the kids under Rome, again ISTM you've decided what to do.

I'm not telling you what to do, just trying to clarify where both sides are coming from.

Thanks for the responses so far. I would love to hear even more on this. It's just that the priest made me feel wrong for wanting to do what I want to do. And now I can't help but wonder, is it wrong of me? According to orthdoxy, if I follow these plans, will my soul be in danger? The only reason I thought it would be fine is due to the collaborations on that parts of both OC's and RC's authorities that I've read about. It would be so wonderful if I can just find an orthodox priest, bishop, whoever, that can tell me this is okay. However, I have yet to find one. Any resources?... I do have the email for my church's archbishop, although contacting him about this issue may be a bold move, heh. My RC boyfriend and I are serious about making this work, sigh, I just wish we can get a little support from our priests. On an encouraging note, online I found an article written by my priest (who has since left for military duty in the middle east) urging the reunion of RC and OC. I was happy! But that doesn't necessarily mean he would support my idea, I suppose. And now we have a new, younger priest, and based on what I've talked to him about before, I don't know if he would support me in this in any way.
Thanks,
~Julia.

Dear Julia,

It will help to know that your RC boyfriend's church has a similar one-true-church claim. If the situation were reversed and you were a Roman or Byzantine Catholic considering joining another church, or in real life your boyfriend were considering joining yours, a conscientious priest of the Roman communion would say something very like what yours said to you. Not as far necessarily as saying it's a sin to even visit the other church (a knowledgeable priest wouldn't say that about the Orthodox) but that it'd be a sin for you to join or even to attend there regularly instead of your own church if your own church is easily available.

That's part of his job. I recently read on an Orthodox site that many mainstream Americans expect ministers to be like funeral directors, all nice and pious spouting platitudes but not demanding anything from them like obedience to church teachings. It's very easy to get sucked into that way of thinking: religion as consumer good or service, or 'you, the customer, are always right'. Now this priest may well have been rude, which isn't excusable, but 'making people feel wrong' when necessary, according to his church's teachings, is again within his responsibilities.

Based on what you've said, that you're considering regular attendance at a church under Rome and raising your kids in that, according to Orthodoxy AFAIK yes.

Right but that doesn't mean those Orthodox think it's OK for their people to leave for other churches. And as I said the other side thinks nearly the same way.

I understand how you feel but again that falls into the 'minister as funeral director' thinking, treating him like a hired hand who follows your orders. Telling you what you may want to hear is not what bishops and priests do.

You'd probably be hurt and disappointed by the reply.

Exactly. See what I wrote above about RC/Orthodox collaboration/dialogue.

Your priest may be one of those Orthodox who's vehemently against reunion talks, which is an allowable opinion in your church, as is your old priest's opinion.

Not knowing your Archbishop, I have no idea what he might or might not say. But it would not be overwhelmingly difficult to find Orthodox hierarchs who, as a matter of pastoral economia, would suggest that the idea of both parties attending the Greek-Catholic Church is sensible.

In the Middle East over the past several centuries, it has been necessary to work out such a modus vivendi, since otherwise marriages would be judged by Moslem law.

Fr. Serge

At my prior parish in N.J., one year, all of a sudden, an elderly couple began attending there. When I began to speak with them I found out that the husband was an RC, while the wife was OCA Orthodox. He did not like the Novus Ordo Liturgy of the West. They decided to attend our BC Church for it's Saturday evening Liturgy, to fulfill his "obligation", and they would attend the wife's OCA church on Sunday morning for that Liturgy. It entailed going to Church twice each weekend, but it worked for them. I would suggest looking into this course of action, at least at the onset of the marriage.

In Christ,
Dn. Robert

I have another question. It is the issue of raising children when one spouse is OC and the other is RC. How is this resolved? Since both religions require each person to raise the children under their religion. It's a no win situation. I am so frustrated that this is so hard for us.

As a Byzatine Catholic deacon, I can only state that we tell our people that the non-Catholic party must agree to raise the children as Catholics, if the marriage is to be blessed in our Church. I think it is good that you are addressing these issues now, rather than later. It is my hope that the Holy Spirit will guide you in resolving these issues.


In Christ,
Dn. Robert

You answered your own question.

Sometimes you have to make decisions you don't like.

That is not helpful to me, and what are you implying.

I am trying to help. Blame the circumstances not me! Life is hard and often unpleasant.

With the exception of Byzantine Catholics and Orthodox in the Middle East as accurately described by Fr Serge, which I'm afraid doesn't apply in this case (you're here not there and anyway your boyfriend's not BC), each church is making you decide which one to go with.

Essentially both churches are saying 'It's either him or your Orthodox church; you can't have both'. Unless he converts which I understand is not on the table.

Again I'm not telling you which one to choose (!) but that's your choice as I see it.

Dear JKY,
It is great that you are considering all these issues before you are engaged. I am an Orthodox Christian with children. I think the guest priest at the university meeting was answering you by the book rather than from a pastoral stance. Does the university fellowship have an orthodox chaplain who personally knows you and that you feel comfortable with? If so perhaps you could ask to see him privately for a first visit and then you and your boyfriend could visit him together for a second visit to discuss the issue from a pastoral stance.
May I also suggest that you make an appointment to see your own parish priest privately and discuss your concerns with him. Have you gone to confession with him yet? Does he know you?
You may find a face to face discussion in private with your pastor helpful.

May God bless you and direct you according to His will.

Dear JKY:
I ask you to consider this possibility. If you ultimately are engaged and you do not intend to become Catholic, have the wedding in an Orthodox parish. It's my understanding that the Roman Catholic Church takes the position that when a Roman Catholic marries an Orthodox Christian, the Roman Catholic Church makes no objection to the wedding taking place in an Orthodox Church (which is not to say that the Roman Catholic Church would encourage one of her members to leave the Roman Catholic Church for one of the Eastern Orthodox Churches). From that point, until such time as either you become Catholic or your husband becomes Orthodox, I think the best thing for both of you would be for you to attend Divine Liturgy in an Orthodox parish weekly and for him to attend either Mass in a Roman Catholic parish or Divine Liturgy in a Byzantine Catholic Church. Under those circumstances, both of you can receive the most precious body and blood of Christ weekly. It is my own personal opinion that you would not be sinning by attending a Catholic Church in addition to attending an Orthodox Church. But unless and until you decide to become Catholic, you should not receive communion in a Catholic Church, because the Orthodox Church forbids you to do so. So I guess I'm saying that I don't think you would sin by going to a Catholic Church with your boyfriend, but you would sin if you receive communion there, so long as you remain Orthodox-so if you wish to go to a Catholic service with him, do it in addition to, not in the place of, atteding Divine Liturgy in and Orthodox parish. I hope I've been helpful.
Peace,
Ryan

Ryan's advice sounds like Fr Robert's and is very good, and Ryan is right that the problem is not where to have the wedding - all your man would have to do, Julia, is ask his bishop for a dispensation from canonical form for the wedding and you could have it at your church. (The RCs do that for Protestant churches too.)

ISTM the deal-breaker, sorry, (at least on paper) is the requirement each church has to raise the kids in that church.

Because of that, and because you has agreed to raise them in his church, the decision is still 'him or the Orthodox'.

As has been mentioned you could find a nice priest who'd bend the rules and commune you even though you agreed to that but again that seems to me a consumer's approach to the matter, not an Orthodox one, and not dealing honestly with your church.

But again, I'm not telling you what to do and if you find that, then decide.