www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Marriage b/w OC and RC

JKY-

Glad to see that you're and that you're taking this so seriously. One critical part of marriage is that you've chosen to walk through life with another person, and that then makes your life a union of three - you, your spouse, and God. Therefore, where you choose to worship and what you believe about God is a VERY important part of your life.

I'm not Orthodox, but I'd second what Alice and Miller say. Discuss these issues with your parish priest. I'm sure an experience parish priest with a big congregation has seen this scenario a few times before and will be able to guide you.

I'd also add that Roman rite Catholicism and Orthodoxy (to include Byzantine Catholicism) are very different. I don't think it's so much a difference in its final content, but there's a radical difference in "style" for lack of a better word. My (Byzantine Catholic) parish has a lot of Latin converts and visitors. Many visitors find it interesting but bizzare. Some (thankfully!) fall in love and stay. But each one has its own theologies, styles of prayer and all that. I think whichever side the two of you choose, you both need to be very comfortable in that particular Rite liturgically, theologically, and also in your private prayers.

I'd also say go it slow. As hard as these issues are now, you'll have a long time to explore these issues before you're married. Explore them vigorously, and let things grow on you as you think about them. Pray often, and God will help you.


By the way, if you want to visit a BC parish in Virginia, feel free to come up and visit us here in MacLean/Tyson's Corner.

http://www.holytransfiguration.org

In fact, this may make visiting a BC church easy for you. We have Vespers at 6:00 (and adult education class at 5:00) on Saturday. I don't know where you are in Virginia, but you and your boyfriend could spend a pleasant afternoon at Tyson's Corner mall: have lunch (there are several NICE restaurants), shop/window shop for a few hours, and then make a ten minute drive to Vespers. You won't miss church Sunday morning, and it'll give your boyfriend a bit of exposure Orthodox-type worship. You should feel right at home if you're Greek or Antiochian Orthodox.

Anyway, I wish you the best in your search. If you decide to come on by, please PM me a few days before so I'll know and can greet you.

Markos

Julia,

Though I'm too ignorant of the canonical subtleties of both Churches to offer any meaningful advice, please be assured of my prayers for both you and your boyfriend. You're in a tough situation. May the Holy Spirit guide you both.

God bless,

Chris

Julia, I was quite touched when I read your post. I, a convert to Greek Orthodoxy, had to deal with many of the same issues when I married my wife, who was Roman Catholic. Believe me, you're not the only person who's had to think these things through.

You wrote:

"I asked the priest if it would be completely wrong of me to attend a byzantine catholic church. He said absolutely."

To understand this priest's response, you should understand a couple of things:

1) Despite the apparent similarities between the Byzantine Catholic churches and Orthodox Churches, the sad fact is that they have about 500 years of bad relations between them. Read about the ongoing disputes between the Russian Orthodox Church and the Eastern Catholic Church in the Ukraine and you'll see what I'm talking about. Whether you like it or not, the Byzantine Catholic church is seen by many Orthodox churches as a clandestine vehicle for "sheep-stealing" Orthodox away from their own churches and into the RC church. I don't necessarily think this is the case, but the perception is still there. In fact, the mere existence of the Eastern Catholic churches is a major hinderance to the two churches reuniting.

2) The "ethnic" Orthodox churches (non convert), as well as the Eastern Catholic churches are dealing with the problems of their members' children intermarrying with other faiths. What this most often results in is the former Orthodox (or Eastern Catholic) joining the more "mainstream" or "American" church. The numbers are there (more on that later), and there's no denying that this happens - a lot.

"I am not even engaged yet, but my long term RC boyfriend and I (I'm eastern orthodox christian) talk about these things. We thought attending that kind of church would be a good compromise."

That could be one compromise. Another could be you both learning more about the other person's faith - you could attend RCIA classes, and your boyfriend could attend pre-chrismation classes at your Orthodox church.

"I also don't understand why some priests take that stance, while I, along with my boyfriend, have found documents, articles and statements encouraging the union of the 2 religions."

Despite pronouncements of love and unity at the top levels, the fact is that most of the Orthodox clergy (particularly in the Slavic churches) are far from eager about establishing any new reunion with the Roman Catholic church. Let's put it this way: I am very close friends with an Interfaith couple who were married in the 1960s. He is Serbian Orthodox, and she is Roman Catholic. At the time they were married, they both thought it would be only a short matter of time before the two churches were reunited. They're still waiting.

"Please offer suggestions, advice, documents, anything that can help me understand the inconsistencies among priests and also that support such an interfaith marriage."

Yes, I have a very good suggestion. Being that I'm Greek Orthodox, I found a great resource in work that was done by Fr. Charles Joanides, Ph.D., who is Director of the Interfaith/Interchurch Marriage Project of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America. You should check out his Web site, found here: http://www.interfaith.goarch.org/irp.asp

Here is another site of interest:
http://www.interfaith.goarch.org/guidelines.asp

It was Fr. Joanides' research that informed me that the Orthodox churches were losing people to intermarriage. Another recommendation he had was to not raise children in two different churches (something I was planning to do at that time. Since then, my wife converted to Greek Orthodoxy, so thank God, this issue has been solved for us).

"By the way, we also agreed that children would be raised catholic."

If you have already made this decision, why remain in the Orthodox Church? As someone who grew up in an "interfaith" household, I can tell you that it is perplexing if one parent follows a different religion than your own.

Here's my advice to you: Make NO hasty decisions. Particularly since you two aren't even engaged yet. (It took me 12 years of inquiry before I even joined the Orthodox Church). Relationships take time, and there's no substitute for time. Talk about it, pray about it, and make no ultimatums. If either of you drops an ultimatum on the other person, this should be a red flag in your relationship.

I would resist making a decision over what religion your children will be raised in. At least, that's what I did. My wife and I were married in the Catholic church, and we had our marriage blessed in the Orthodox church. We had priests who were wise enough not to demand that our children would be raised in their own particular church. If that priest had issued an ultimatum, we probably would have walked out.

I think interfaith marriages can send weird, mixed messages to children, and they should be avoided. However, neither of you need to make a decision right now about which church to join. So read, ask questions, learn, and keep praying.

Oh, one more thing:

Fr. Rev. Charles Joanides' book that he wrote after doing years of research on intermarriages between Greek Orthodox and non-Greek Orthodox is titled "When You Intermarry: A Resource for Inter-Christian, Intercultural Couples, Parents and Families." Its ISBN number is 1584380993, and it is listed on Amazon.com

I'd mentioned earlier that the Orthodox (and Byzantine Catholics) are losing people to intermarriage and it seems that Fr Charles Joanides via Evyenios has confirmed that.

Given the Orthodox' one-true-church claim is my and Julia's assumption correct that they require you to raise the kids Orthodox?

Or is the issue simply that an Orthodox priest understandably said no when Julia suggested attending a Byzantine Catholic church as a compromise if she married a Roman Catholic?

Transfiguration, McLean is a model Byzantine Catholic parish. Lovely place.

To the extent that they are able to do so, the Orthodox do indeed require that the children of a mixed marriage must be raised as Orthodox.

Fr. Serge

Thank you so much for your response. I do plan on talking with my priest, as does my boyfriend plan on talking with his priest. Luckily we have time to think through everything carefully, and I definatly plan on exploring the difference between orthodox and BC more closely to really understand what it is I would be believing.

Thank you so much for those references. It is a possibility that IF and WHEN we are engaged, we both may look into switching over to the BC church, which of course would be converting for me. First I must explore the differences in beliefs further.

Given the Orthodox' one-true-church claim is my and Julia's assumption correct that they require you to raise the kids Orthodox?

Or is the issue simply that an Orthodox priest understandably said no when Julia suggested attending a Byzantine Catholic church as a compromise if she married a Roman Catholic?

I believe that the priest thought of my question of attending a BC church as a compromise if I married a RC. I would also like to know about the requirement to raise my children under OC.

I suppose another issue I must give thought to is if I do end up raising my children catholic, or even converting to the BC one day, how my family will react. I know my brothers would not be upset, however it may be an issue with parents, and I am certain it would be an issue with my grandparents. Unfortunately, I grew up always wanting to please my mother, and she knows how to make me guilty, and it is almost impossible to reason with her. I already expressed the possibilty of raising my children catholic one day when I talked to her about my situation, and her response was "It wouldn't be my preference,but it's your life". Which is understandable. However if I do end up raising my children catholic or even converting, I pray that will be still be as understanding. It would be awful to have bad relations with my parents and/or grandparents because of what I decided to go. However, my decision would be based on my personal beliefs and also on the best interests of my family.

Thank you, Fr Serge. Thought so. The Greek Archdiocese site Evyenios linked to seems to favour the consumerist 'choice' approach to these things I criticised earlier; it seems critical of that church's rules.

Long story short, Julia, you'd have to believe what Roman Catholics do.

Nuancing that (before people start throwing things at me) as often taught on this board, some BCs hold that RC and EO aren't really different and that you can hold the RC doctrines in an Orthodox manner. For example, that Mary is immaculate but the Western definition of that, which relies on a Western concept of original sin, doesn't apply/isn't needed in Byzantine/Orthodox theology, if you catch my meaning. Or that the Pope is the earthly head of the church but his power is only a function of church infallibility, which isn't all that different to what Orthodoxy teaches. 'YMMV' - obviously your Orthodox priest will agree with my first sentence but not with the finessing some BCs put on it!

As for family, it sounds like they'd be understanding, realising you are a grown woman, but if they aren't (of course devout Orthodox would be upset), again, sometimes you have to make decisions you don't like.

�Vaya con Dios!

I can think of four coupless off-hand that are mixed Catholic/Orthodox marriages, where one spouse did not convert. In all those cases it was agreed that the children would be baptized and raised Orthodox. I've only spoken to one person about why they did this. He (the husband who is Orthodox) said it was his wife's wish (she is Catholic and did has not converted) to do this.

Andrew

How amenable are the boyfriend and his family to that?

It would put him in the same spot you would be if you followed through on raising them under Rome. He may not convert but he couldn't honestly receive Communion in his church.

Well, you are describing my parents, except that we kids were baptized in a Catholic church by my parents' agreement.

We were, however, raised with equal education about both religions and their traditions.

This was very spiritually and culturally fulfilling to us as children and as adults. Even after we went through all that good higher education (he's a doctor, I'm a lawyer), we went back to the classroom to study theology and church history.


I have several friends of similar backgrounds, about 50-50 on whether the parents chose Catholicism or Orthodoxy, while educating their children about both, and they seem to have the same general opinion.

I don't believe people should convert or transfer in order to marry unless they truly embrace the "new" religion. The to-be-marrieds do have to discuss how they are going to raise any children or live their spiritual life, with or without children, before marrying - and if possible they should talk to their own clergy and their families about it.

"Well, you are describing my parents, except that we kids were baptized in a Catholic church by my parents' agreement."

My question: Did this influence you to choose to be byzantine catholic?

"We were, however, raised with equal education about both religions and their traditions.

This was very spiritually and culturally fulfilling to us as children and as adults. Even after we went through all that good higher education (he's a doctor, I'm a lawyer), we went back to the classroom to study theology and church history." [B][/B]

That is encouraging to hear!