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Ultimately you must choose where you and your kids will receive communion.

Andrew

But technically the Orthodox parent was breaking that church's rules, right?

What Andrew said.

Dear Julia:

I think Alice is and has remained Roman Catholic!

Amado

But did that decision involve children?

Am I really the only person on this thread who has ever heard of pastoral economia?

Fr. Serge

Is it not the case anymore that when a Catholic marries a non-Catholic, the non-Catholic parent must make an oath to the Church that the children will be raised Catholic?

That certainly used to be the case; I assumed it still was.

Logos Teen

That's right; the RC rule has changed. Now the RC or Eastern Catholic spouse has to promise to raise the kids in that faith, not the non-member spouse.

So in Julia's situation the boyfriend is fine in his church but if she follows through on the decision she will have barred herself from Communion at her church.

Fr Serge, if it's within the bishop's powers then fine.

I didn't think about it earlier, but a good friend's father was Orthodox and his mother was Catholic. He was baptized Catholic and communed there, although he would attend holidays at the OC. This of course made easier by the calendar disparity. When he decided to become Orthodox he was chrismated and to my knowledge only goes to liturgy now.

The four other couples I know fairly well, I really have never figured out why the Mom's never converted. Two attend liturgy every week, and have for years. I think they periodically attend a RC service for communion. I would think for the kids this would be odd, but I understand everybody needs to do what they think is best.

Andrew

Pastoral economia is of course within the authority (powers? - what do you mean?) of the Bishop. But I suspect that the question indicates a lack of understanding of what pastoral economia is.

Fr. Serge

Well, you know your stuff, Father, and if that's true it wouldn't hurt if Julia nicely asked him.

By 'powers' yes, I mean 'authority'. As I understand it economy means he can change man-made rules for pastoral reasons but not faith or morals (such as allowing a gay wedding, to give an example of something we can all agree is wrong).

I know that in theory economy and dispensation aren't exactly the same but 'close enough for our purposes'.

Again, looking at Andrew's examples, they may well be applications of pastoral economy and ones emotionally I have no problem with but logically to agree to raise your kids in the other church (unless dispensed by the bishop?) or to attend the other church (even without communing) if one's own is available* are to cut oneself from honestly receiving Communion in one's one church, on either side.

*I have no problem of course with a high-church BC not going to an abuse-ridden Novus Ordo service (because he wants to remain Catholic!) and keeping his own patrimony by substituting regular, non-communing attendance at an Orthodox church (rather like the RC mother in one of Andrew's examples), even though logically that doesn't follow Rome's rules. I don't see how under those circumstances Rome could occasionally commune him honestly though, but can imagine he'd find a sympathetic priest to bend the rules.

Julia,

quite an interesting dilemma that you're confronted with, but not uncommon.

I for one, experienced this 10 years ago.

My wife is Greek Orthodox and I am Latin Catholic. (My wife's family are not that religious, i.e.. never attend a DL, and as far as I know, none of them have received Communion in over 15 years.)

When we were planning our wedding, I requested that we take the Catholic marriage prep course together. We did.

We decided to get married in the GO Church, mainly because of the beauty of the Sacrament. Our Koumbara's father is a GO priest who also con-celebrated in our ceremony.

When our first child was born, we decided that we would baptize her in the GO church. Although our daughter will not speak a word of Greek, we chose this also because of the beauty.

I requested that our children attend that Catholic school system, which they will do. I think it's important that children receive a religions education.

There are times when I think we made the wrong decision in the church that we married in and the Church that we are baptizing our children in, especially when I bring my daughter up to receive the Gifts, (knowing that I can't receive with her).

I have embraced Holy Orthodoxy and am committed to teaching our children about everything that it has to offer. I also find myself educating my wife and her siblings, and on occasion their parents about their faith. They appear to appreciate it.

(Sometimes it can get comical) Just the other day, my 3 year old daughter handed me a joker from a deck of playing cards and asked me to kiss Jesus.

A few years ago, Ava's Godmother said to me.. I hope Ava stay's Orthodox. I then replied, living in a metropolis multi-cultural city like Toronto, I just hope she stays Christian.

In Christ,

Brad

This may make matters linguistically worse, in which case I apologize, but here goes:

Pastoral economia is related to the concept that the Church is a household, a family (you may have heard the English expression "the Household of Faith") and that the authority of the Bishop is analogous to that of the father of the family, not to that of the general of the army or the ceo of the corporation, or even the authority of the school principal.

The father of the family knows - or had better know - that each son, each daughter, is a distinct individual, with needs, with talents, with strengths and with weaknesses and hence sometimes, even often, requires discernment and treatment on an individual basis. The object of the exercise is not for Daddy to throw his weight around, but for the son to reach maturity with a good understanding of the Faith and of self-discipline in morality. In order to approach this goal, the father of the family must sometimes be prepared to make individual exceptions to general rules, and must almost always be prepared to realize that a correction which will help one son could destroy another son. As St. Paul famously put it, he must know which son to feed on milk, and which son can take solid food.

As if that weren't enough, closely related to economia is the concept of synkatavasis - most easily translated "condescension". This first relates to Our Lord Jesus Christ, God the Son, who "condescended" to our infirmities by His incarnation and His dwelling amongst us, even to His death on the Cross and Resurrection from the dead.

These two ideas give the Bishop broad responsibilities requiring the most careful discernment on an individual basis (the common postulate in civil government or civil administration that "if you do it for one, you must do it for all" cuts no ice whatever in the Church). This responsibility is heavy. The canons may not be dismissed with a wave of the hand, and people may not be cut off with a wave of the hand either.

The couple whose impending marriage began this discussion strike me as being in genuine need of pastoral economia (bearing in mind that they are not my parishioners and I do not know them). From what we are hearing, they are serious Christian believers, and have the possibility of making a serious Christian marriage. A responsible Bishop would think long and hard before deciding to apply rigorism (akrivia) and send them away sad and discouraged.

Fr. Serge

Well put, Father, but again I can't see how an Orthodox bishop could in good conscience agree to let an Orthodox raise her children outside what he believes is the one true church (mirroring the identical rule from Rome). Seems not a matter of a man-made rule to be waived but of faith where he's coming from.

Add to that the emotional aspect of losing a generation to assimilation to the larger culture, or 'Julia's kids aren't Orthodox so they're not Greek (or _______) any more'. On top of the theology I dare say there'd be an element of that in the bishop's decision just like that Orthodox priest's reaction to her suggestion that she become a Byzantine Catholic.

I could be discourteous enough to say that you have just explained why you are not an Orthodox bishop! But that would be a cheap shot.

Instead, I shall say that you might try reading again what I wrote, prayerfully, and inquiring of people who are more theologically learned than I am as to how they would criticize my all-too-brief comments on economia and synkatavasis.

And pray that neither you nor I ever become a bishop!

Fr. Serge

Young Fogey,

Just for clarification, are you saying that now the Catholic parent is the one that has to promise to raise the children in the Church, and not the non-Catholic parent?

That would make more logical sense, since the non-Catholic parent would logically feel little incentive to go through with a promise made to a Church which he or she doesn't even believe is the True Church.

Logos Teen