www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology How Much Does God Know...A Discussion On Open Theism

Open Theism has been sweeping through the church and teaching that God does not know the choices which we will make. How would those in the Byzantine forum address this teaching? Open for discussion.

He knows everything before hand. St John Chrysostom in one of his homilies on forgivenes, states that the Father moments before we ask forgiveness has already forgiven us because he knows the intentions of our hearts. That is why we have free will; to choose the will of the Father, the perfect will; to choose something that is ok, but we could do better, permissable will; or to choose just to go off and do whatever, our own will and desires.

However, the more we say yes to God's perfect will, the harder it is to say no. The more we desire to be in that state of grace that is so pleasing to the Triune God. Then the harder it becomes to say yes to the things of the world. The greater our yes to Him each time, the more we are challanged to grow and become all that God has created us, his children, to be.

Amen !

Pastor Joel,

Pani Rose has given you the correct answer. Now, let me explain why this is true. Scripture tells us that "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever." (Heb 13:9, NIV) Theologians say that this is true because God exists outside of time (time is a measure of change, and God is unchangable).

God exists, then, in the eternal NOW. For God all things that have happened, are happening or will happen are happening NOW and He knows. To suggest that God only knows moments before we make a decision is to suggest a God that is changeable. If God can change then He is not the God that Jesus reveals for that God is revealed as constant and unchanging.

Fr. Deacon Edward

God is omniscient.

How much does God know? More about me than I wish he knew.

Fr. Deacon Edward, you say


"God exists, then, in the eternal NOW. For God all things that have happened, are happening or will happen are happening NOW and He knows. To suggest that God only knows moments before we make a decision is to suggest a God that is changeable. If God can change then He is not the God that Jesus reveals for that God is revealed as constant and unchanging."

How is this compatible with the incarnation? Surely in order to become human, God must be in time and so have foreknoweldge.

Cheers

From the deacon's prayers, before the Divine Liturgy:

"When Your body was in the tomb, and Your soul in hell, when You were in paradise with the thief, You were at the same time -- O Christ, as God, upon Your throne with the Father and the Spirit -- infinite and filling all things."

Not an explanation, perhaps, but a simple statement of part of our faith.

Yours in Christ,
Jeff Mierzejewski

No - I think that this, at least for me, is a kind of explanation.

I have always sensed that God has to be understood to be beyond the limits of principles such the Law of Non-contradiction. The effrots of such theologians as Thomas Aquinas to show that doctrines of God are consistent is a mistake. I prefer (to use another LR thinker) Nicholas of Cusa who claims that all opposites are identical in God. To quote again from the Divine Liturgy:

"It is right and just to sing of You, to bless You, to thank You, to worship You everywhere in your domain; for you are God - ineffible, inconceivable, invisible, incomprehensible ..."

Cheers
Paul

God is thought thinking Himself. Since He is boundless, endless, timeless, then He thinks all and knows all. To say that God does not know what choices we will make is to place Him in our timeline, which of course He is not.

The view reported of Open Theism is a category error.
God lives outside and beyond Time. Therefore "will make", is meaningless in relation to God. Only the Present Tense has meaning. God knows what our choices are. Any attempt to postulate a time-sequence of God is simply a projection onto Him of the imperfect way in which WE experience reality. By the same token we cannot imagine how reality appears to God.
Therefore the question itself has no meaning.

Joel what are you talking about when you say the Church in your original statement. I ask as you and yours (as some one has informed already here) have adopted the Western European Protestant faith, what do you define as the Church?

No, not at all. Such a claim is to limit God. we have to think "outside the box" in order to understand this (if, in fact, we can).

God has always saved us. Before we were created or the universe came to be, God knew us and loved us and saved us. What for us is a sequential passage of time is simply NOW for God. We can get a glimpse of that when we reflect on our own experience. A boring class takes forever while and exciting period of time passes quickly. Scripture tells us that a thousand years are as a moment for God -- and that is an understatement.

The incarnation from our POV happened in time some 2,000 years ago. For God it is happening NOW. What we call "foreknowledge" for God is simply knowledge. God knows all, sees all because He is God. If God required time to pass then God would be subject to change. But God is infinitely simple (that is, God is) and He cannot change and, therefore, time does not "pass" for Him.

Does that help?

Deacon Ed

For God it is happening NOW. What we call "foreknowledge" for God is simply knowledge. God knows all, sees all because He is God. If God required time to pass then God would be subject to change. But God is infinitely simple (that is, God is) and He cannot change and, therefore, time does not "pass" for Him.

The utmost of this is the Consecration of the Eucharist. As the Holy Spirit brings Jesus all over the world every moment of the day.

Absolutely correct! In fact, in Latin theology as well as some of the Church Fathers, the actual consecration is a re-presentation of the crucifixion. Not a re-crucifixion, but we are made present at the cross for the one and only crucifixion.

Fr. Deacon Edward