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Oh Alex ,

Don't I have enough problems of my own without becoming embroiled in this ?

It strikes me that , though Russell has not actually said so . he has been living and practicing as an EC for some time - he mentions 2 Churches he has been attending regularly - first a Melkite one and more recently a Ruthenian one both of them where he has been living at different times - so I suppose that he could be considered EC even though he is canonically still Latin.

As we have said so often here there is a legalistic aspect of this Sunday Obligation - and ECs do not have this mindset.

Moving on to Alex's comment Now frankly the thought of Alex as a heretical schismatic just makes me curl up and laugh like a drain .

Anhelyna --the Eastward tilted Latin

Relying particularly on the words "genuine spiritual advantage", the highlighted CCEO text has been interpreted, rightly or wrongly, as conferring a right on Eastern and Oriental Catholics to satisfy litugical obligations by attendance at Divine Liturgies served in the Eastern Orthodox or Oriental Orthodox Churches, although the specific textual reference there is to reception of the Holy Mysteries and not to the Liturgy.

Conversely, although nearly identical textual phrasing occurs in the Latin Code (see below), I have never seen it suggested that it confers the same right on our Latin brothers and sisters. In fact, it has been repeatedly stated that no such right accrues to them, that the sole purpose of this text is to allow for the reception of the Sacraments in cases of necessity or spiritual advantage (e.g., ecumenical events), should an Orthodox clergyman be willing to afford them (which is generally not the case).

From the standpoint of the nearly identical texts, but conflicting interpretations being afforded them, I guess it is a toss-up how one wishes to proceed. Now, there may be another document that speaks more definitively and favorably to the position we're espousing, but it escapes me at the moment.

Many years,

Neil

Here the appropriate canon from the CIC regarding the Sunday obligation for Latin Catholics:

The obligation for Eastern Catholics from the Code of Canons for the Eastern Churches (CCEO) is somewhat different:

With regard for worship of Eastern Catholics with Eastern non-Catholic Christians, the CCEO has this to say (this does not apply to Latin Catholics):

The Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity issued the following in the document entitled, DIRECTORY FOR THE APPLICATION OF PRINCIPLES AND NORMS ON ECUMENISM [vatican.va] ,

The operative phrase is "given suitable circumstances and the approval of church authorities", so for the original poster Russell Wright he should discuss his dilemma with his pastor or spiritual director.

Deacon John,

Thank you for the citations to the Canons regarding the obligations and particularly to Canon 670 of the CCEO. I had taken a stupid pill today and forgotten where to find that.

As to the Principles on Application of Ecumenism, I would disagree with you on the operative (to the particular circumstances discussed in this thread) phrase being ""given suitable circumstances and the approval of church authorities". I read the context in which this statement is offered as being applicable to concelebrations and other public instances in which representatives of the Church, in the person of hierarchs, presbyters, or a congregation might have occasion to attend and potentially participate in the Divine Liturgy or other liturgical celebration of a Sister Church of one of the Orthodox communions.

I think the subsequent "Pastors should carefully instruct the faithful so that they will be clearly aware of the proper reasons for this kind of sharing in liturgical worship" is intended as a caveat to assure that the faithful, in observing such, are neither scandalized by it nor encouraged to extrapolate from it a right to exercise the same degree of participation in the rituals of other Christian bodies, in which the apostolic succession and validity seen in the Churches of our Orthodox brethren is lacking.

What I think is telling is the subsequent paragraph:

and I note that it essentially mirrors and is footnoted to both Canons 844, S.2 of the CIC and 671, S.2 of the CCEO, the Canons which I previously cited.

That said, for Russell's purposes, though "spiritual advantage" may commend it, inasmuch as he (psychologically) obtains less spiritual edification from attendance at a Novus Ordo Mass than he does from attendance at a Divine Liturgy, I would agree that, under the common interpretation applied to those of the Latin Church, he cannot readily avail himself of attendance at an Orthodox Divine Liturgy as a means of satisfying his Sunday obligation. He could only do that if, as a practical matter, there is no Catholic Mass available to him (which would effectively render moot his obligation for attendance, anyway, as has been discussed elsewhere here previously).

Anhelyna,

True enough, like many others here, but ...

Many years,

Neil

Russell,

I do agree with Deacon John that you

although I think you're unlikely to get a lot of sympathy from your pastor, inasmuch as you'd be explaining to him that you don't find his celebration of the Mass (or the NO itself even)to be spiritually edifying. In the long run, you would probably be best to consider a Canonical Transfer to an Eastern Catholic Church, although I would caution that, if you decide to do so, it should be because you find that you are truly drawn to Eastern spirituality, not that you are dissatisfied with the Novus Ordo. The latter reason will seldom pass muster in seeking the necessary approvals from the respective Latin and Eastern ordinaries.

Petitions espousing traditionalist viewpoints that result in an antagonistic view toward the NO and post-VII reforms are not ordinarily deemed an appropriate basis for granting a Change. Why? Among other reasons are the fact that the Eastern Church one sees today may not be the one of tomorrow, as the Eastern Churches undergo their own reforms, intended to remove latinizations and restore our own traditions. Will the transplanted Latin still like us when we look less like the Church they've romanticized us to be? Or will they be disenchanted and want to move on? And to where? In most instances, only a single Change of Canonical Enrollment is permitted.

In assessing a petitioner's motivation for a Change, one consideration on the part of the receiving ordinary is commonly the extent to which he perceives that the requestor truly understands and is drawn to the Church for reasons related to his/her theological development and spiritual well-being.

A Change of Canonical Enrollment is a decision that should not be lightly made. For many, it is not only a change of parish and rite, but also a whole process of inculturation, particularly given the ethnicity of our parishes. We tend to be a 'family' and 'family' is more than liking the pirohi, the fataya, or the lahmajun at the annual food fair weekend. Anyone intending to make a change should feel certain that they feel comfortable not only with the spirituality, but with the community with whom they will share and explore and develop that spirituality. You are often entering into a community whose ties to one another stretch back generations - sometimes back to a single village in the Levant, Ukraine, or elsewhere.

I'm not saying any of this of this to embarress you or to suggest that, if you sought a Change that it wouldn't be for the right reason, but to assure that you have a realization of the Eastern Catholic Churches that is sometimes lacking among our Latin sisters and brothers; that we appreciate interest in us and in our liturgical traditions, but we want to and must be understood and appreciated for ourselves, not as an antidote to what disaffected Latins perceive as wrong in their own Church.

The Novus Ordo Mass is neither less authentic nor holy than the Tridentine Mass; each, as a service of worship directed to God, has its own intrinsic holiness when served faithfully and reverently. To the extent that abuses exist within either, they must needs be addressed; but the form is only that - an external; ultimately, worship comes from within oneself, one's heart and soul.

Many years,

Neil

I would like to take a somewhat different approach to Russell's initial question, if I may.

It seems to me that while the canonical arguments in previous posts are clearly important, the matter of context is also important. We're not talking about long-term visits to a place with no EC church (e.g., the case of someone transferred temporarily to a different city); we're not talking about extended travel to numerous locations with no EC church (e.g., a summer vacation driving across the country). We're talking about what is apparently an occasional weekend.

Russell, you are asking about what to do when you visit your sister. Does your sister go to church? If so, then perhaps the rules of common etiquette would apply. When we visit my family, we eat what we are served, even if it is meat on a day that we would ordinarily fast (and we never visit them during Great Lent!). When we visit my in-laws, we attend their church, even though it makes our skin crawl. We go to an Orthodox church for Saturday vespers to fulfill the needs of our spirit, but we go to their RC parish to fulfill family obligations, not "Sunday obligations."

If your sister does not go to church, then I would suggest that you could be free to play the "tourist" and go where your heart pleases. Consider it an opportunity to experience how different communities celebrate the mysteries.

But that's just me, and this statement represents only my view and not that of any ecclesial body to which I may belong, nor of any canon lawyers with whom I may be acquainted, nor even of any etiquette books which I may have read.

-- Penthaetria

Now frankly the thought of Alex as a heretical schismatic just makes me curl up and laugh like a drain.

Anhelyna --the Eastward tilted Latin

Really, I have to ask: Anhelyna, how does a drain laugh? I've been trying to imagine that sound all day, or is this an Old World idiom that doesn't translate to us New Worlders?

-- Penthaetria

Penthaetria,

Thanks for asking that - thought I was going to have to be the one

Many years,

Neil

Oh dear

I honestly don't think this one does translate

Try "laughing helplessly until you can't breathe for laughter"

It's certainly a degree beyond ROFLMAO and at least 3 degrees beyond ROFL

Sorry about that folks - after all we do speak the same language :p don't we ?

Anhelyna

Irish Melkite Catholic,

May I remind you that the Canon that you quoted merely talks of reception of the Sacraments and says nothing about any obligations of Sunday and Holy Day Worship. Try again.

Michael

Neil,

my point in posting and underscoring the phrase "given suitable circumstances and the approval of church authorities" was to illustrate to the poster, Russell, that given his circumstances no competent Church authority would assent his request to fulfill his obligation at an Orthodox Divine Liturgy when a Catholic Mass is available. Perhaps in talking with his pastor spiritual director, Russell can overcome his aversion.

As to those principles I cited, I would submit that the context in which the Church primarily contemplates this occurence is in the Middle East, especially between the Melkites and Antiochians, were inter-marriage and inter-communion are somewhat common, and not the typical situation in the Americas.

Michael, you did look at Canon 881? That is our obligation for Sunday and feast day worship. We are not bound by the Latin canons and don't have all those penalties of sin attached to our canons. The East has an aversion to Latin legalism and doesn't imitate it.

Michael ,

You have a handle - Mike0126c and you sign yourself Michael

Neil's handle is Irish Melkite and he signs himself Neil

We do try to be polite and friendly here - many of us have been here for some years.

Please do try and be a little more understanding of us.

Anhelyna

Anhelyna,

I was not intending to be rude. I just was already on the reply page and didn't remember the name. Cool down and quit assuming things. Because that is not what I intended.

Michael