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Hi,

I think we are miscommunicating.

If you cannot attend a Catholic liturgy, then you cannot fulfill your Sunday obligation. You do not sin, because it is not your fault, but the obligation is still not fulfilled.

Now, canon law does encourage you to do something in those situations. Yes, prayers, psalms, maybe a paraliturgy if one is available.

Of all of these other things, the very best would be attending a valid Eucharistic Liturgy in an Orthodox (Eastern, Oriental or Assyrian) church.

So, if you simply cant fulfill your Sunday obligation, well you just can't. No problem. In this situation, attending an Orthodox Divine Liturgy is the best thing you can do with your Sunday, so, by all means, do attend.

Shalom,
Memo.

I'm sorry, but you'll need to show some reference to this. I simply do not believe that any "kosher" Roman Catholic moral theologian has every posited your "two free Sundays" rule, and I've read quite a bit about it. But I'm no expert, so I'll be interested who these "kosher" theologians are.

I realize that to many of those in the East that us Latins may seem over-scrupulous and over-concerned with "obligations". However, I believe it is the common patrimony of both East and West that we are to be obedient to Christ, and the highest form of obedience to Christ on this earth is obedience to our valid spiritual authorities, i.e. our bishops. In the Latin Church, our bishops have determined that we are obligated to worship before our Lord, and in communion with our Church, each and every Sunday if personal circumstances permit. There is nothing that excuses us from this obligation for frivolous reasons such as "recreation". Many of us in the Latin Church are quite happy with this obligation, and joyfully follow it.

If the bishops of the Eastern Churcbes have determined that they will not make this obligatory for their flocks, that is perfectly fine as well. They are the spiritual authorities of their flock, they are entrusted to know what is best for them. The key is obedience to your particular Church. This is not being scrupulous, it is being Christian.

Also, most of us have made it quite clear to Russell that he should speak with his spiritual advisor, not us, for a final word on this issue in his life. The canons are meant to be guidelines to help us serve Christ and His Church, and not unbending rules. If Russell's spiritual advisor tells him he can attend Orthodox Liturgy in place of Catholic Mass, then I would say he can do so in good conscience.

Dear Memo,

O.K.

Alex

We can always count on incognitus to cut to the chase... now this reminds me of a story:

There was a certain Father O'Malley who had decided not celebrate Mass one Sunday morning and was going to play 18 holes of golf. After scheduling the parochial vicar to cover his Masses that morning, Fr O'Malley set out very early on Sunday to a golf course about 40 miles outside the diocese so that no one would recognize him.

Meanwhile, in the great upstairs, Fr O'Malley caught the attention of Saint Peter. As was his custom, Saint Peter reported the actions of Father O'Malley to Our Lord. The Lord responded, "Don't worry I'll take care of him."

As he teed off the first hole, Father O'Malley sank a hole in one. This round of golf was to be the best round Father O'Malley had ever played. He shot -14 under par, and sank no less than 3 holes in one.

Well, needless to say, Saint Peter observed all this in disbelief. Coming upon the Lord, Saint Peter remarked, "I thought you said you were going to take care of him. He played his best game ever and even shot 3 holes in one."

And Jesus said, "Yes, he sure did, and who do you think he's going to tell?"

To All,

Alex wrote, "Actually I don't understand what you Latins are getting so exercised about".

This thread started with a post from Russsel, a "Roman Catholic", who stated that attending the Roman Mass makes his "skin crawl".

Instead of anyone saying disdain for the Roman Mass should not be your reason for seeking out the Eastern Church, everyone seemed to jump on the band wagon.

When we Latin Catholics see this kind of stuff in print it makes OUR "skin crawl".

I believe that this is what has set 'Mike 0126c" off, making him sound rude and offensive.

How ANYONE can make the statement that the celebration of The Holy Eucharist makes their "skin crawl" is beyond me! I don't care WHAT church or rite.

The Roman Church gets blasted from all sides; Protestants, fundamentalist Christians, "Traditional" Catholics, Orthodox, and everyone else in between, even here by our Eastern Catholic brothers and sisters.

The Roman Mass promulgated by Vatican II and implemented by Pope Paul VI is THE accepted liturgy of the Roman Church and deserves the respect of ALL Catholics. No one is asking you to like it, attend it, or understand it, but I am asking you to respect it.

Bill, getting some things off of his chest.

Bill - since I cannot send you a PM this will have to be public.
[Rant] Agreed it did - but this was from an RC who had also stated that he had attended DL and I took it to be regularly over a period of time - I suspect others did too.

I think if you trawl posts here you will find us on many occasions saying that dislike of the RC Mass as it is , from my limited understanding, served in the US and can be bland even banal and oftimes NOT according to the rubrics is no reason to apply to change Rites [ sorry Neil cannot remember the term for that ]

Passions do get a little aroused on this topic because so many of our Eastern Friends here are, to some extent, 'plagued' by people unhappy in the Latin Church by what they perceive to be abuses ,and then descend on EC Churches and Parishes and wish to change things there - they want their traditional Latin Practices and these are not practices of Eastern Catholicism.[/Rant]

sorry - had to get that off my chest too

Oh and I am often the first person who comments about lack of courtesy

Anhelyna

Slava Isusu Christu!
Glory to Jesus Christ!

Wow, what a discussion. Many valid points brought up by all, but what is the real issue here?

I perceive it to be a political allegience to one's bishop.
This is a good quality, but in the end, when we stand unclothed before our Saviour Jesus Christ, is he going to push me off the ladder into the fires of hell because I chose to go to a Valid Apostolic Liturgy or Mass on a Sunday in worship of the Holy Trinity instead of my local parish?

I do not mean to cause any further discontent, however, all bishops are equal (as I have been taught), they have all been given the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and they all carry legitimate succession from our original Holy and Sainted Apostles. I truly believe that Jesus did call St. Peter the rock and foundation, (this is what literally saved me from becoming a Jehovah Witness at one point in my life - Glory to Jesus Christ and the Holy Trinity) but a recent sermon reminded me again that being man, we can make errors.

In one important instance, St. Peter felt that a Christian needed to be brought into the Judaic culture (including the undergoing of circumcision) and live as Jews with the acceptance of the Messiah, whereas St. Paul believed that pagans also could be brought to unity with Jesus Christ, and did not have to undergo circumcision as did men of the Judaic tribes.

Both thoughts were valid as presented but in the end, we became converts of St.Paul as a whole. The importance to me is acceptance of the WORD, and Holy Tradition of our Holy Fathers. Whether a man is circumcised or not should not make him a sinner. It is sometimes okay to agree to disagree, to move to the next important task.

As a group, we should look upon our shared fundamentals, the Seven Ecumenical Councils, and share our faith.

I personally have issues with the need to demystify everything and make it black and white, but that is my problem, no one elses, and I do not force that on them.

I love the fact that our God is a mystery, and will always remain so,
...You are God ineffable, inconceivable, invisible, incomprehensible, ever existing, yet ever the same.
The negative Theology and mysticism that I have found in the Eastern Church has brought me much closer to God and the Holy Trinity than I ever thought possible, and I love our Eastern Church for allowing me to experience this. I am permitted to explore the spirituality without boundaries drawn in black and white (such as I have to go to this church or that one). I may be sinning for disobeying a bishop's law that I cannot attend liturgy in his brother bishop's Church, but I will hold that between Our Lord and myself come the final judgement.

Truly, if that were the only sin I had to worry about....

It seems to me, to refuse to acknowledge the entire group of bishops, is to refuse to acknowledge the entire family. I am not a theologian, but I feel that just seems wrong!

Please forgive me all, but I truly felt the need to speak.

Through the intercessions of the Most Holy, Most Pure Theotokos, God Bearer and Mother of God, I ask that your prayers continue to ask for the Holy Spirit to guide our Holy Fathers, Pope John Paul II and Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew to overcome the obstacles that prevent us from sharing the same cup in celebration of the Mystery of our Lord Jesus Christ. Amen

Michael (a sinner)

Bill,

Were those the words you were looking for?

Many years,

Neil

Dear Neil,

Yes it is.

In my haste to post about the "skin crawl" issue, I pretty much skimmed over most of this thread. I shot from the hip, so to speak.

My apologies to all.

If you haven't noticed from past posts, I'm a staunch defender of my sui iuris church, too.

Bill

As an Easterner who gets complaints from many Latin Traditionalists, one complaint is that the Mass of Paul VI is NOT the Mass of Vatican II. The Novus Ordo was never authorized or promulgated by Vatican II. The Council had been over for several years when Paul VI promulgated the Novus Ordo. Closer questioning usually gets them talking about all the abuses they encounter. I have been to dignified and reverent Novus Ordo Masses. I have also been to some that were totally off-the-wall. I see a lot of this as a matter of internal discipline - or lack of it - which shouldn't be a problem if the bishops are doing their jobs. I tell them the same as others have said. Not to move East to escape the problems in the Latin Rite. Only become Eastern Catholics if their spirituality is Eastern. That makes a big, big difference. Easterners have a different mindset than Latins. Most tend to not be tolerant of Latin legalism because it is not part of our tradition or character. Many confrontations are caused by legalistic Latins wanting to scrupulously dot every "i." We just don't think that way in the East. My Church was visited once by Latin Traditionalists who wanted to correct our errors because the bread was not properly unleavened, etc. According to them, we were in serious error because we were not doing it the way Trent decreed. No, we were not doing it the way Trent decreed, and we never will! This is a recurring and extremely irritating problem. So it seems we all have a lot to get off our chests.

Dear Bill,

And every time we hear of a Latin referring to his church as "sui iuris," we suspect he is on the way to becoming Byzantine . . .

And I said I didn't know what was getting you Latins upset in relation to attending an Orthodox DL or not.

As for the Novus Ordo, I've no problems with it.

As long as they keep the clowns and liturgical dancing out of it, that is . . .

Alex

Bill, my Latin brother,

Not a problem, all of us (even we Easterners) have been known to do that from time to time (of course, we do it more mystically, and it's sometimes hidden by the clouds of incense ).

Many years,

Neil

Maybe the original poster should have said:

"The Novus Ordo (the way it is usually celebrated
in the vast majority of RC parishes) makes my skin
crawl..."

Yes, the Novus Ordo can be solemnly and reverently
celebrated (like they do on EWTN, for example) but
is full of novelties and abuses in most RC parishes
since the rubrics are not enforced.....

Dear Antonius,

Vast majority? ....... Pleeeease. :rolleyes:

Perhaps you should consider moving to Pittsburgh. The churches I've attended here aren't all quite up to EWTN but we put on a pretty good show!

Dear Neil & Alex,

Blessings and many years to both of you!

You guys ARE great!

Alex,

If only I could convince my wife and kids.
Every time I drive by the nearest Ruthenian church,(about 12 miles, not far from an Eastern viewpoint), I tell my kids when they are with me that "We're going to start going to this church!". They always rebut, "But we like our church!". Maybe someday.

Bill