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Glory to Jesus Christ!

Dear Friends,

I need advice on my canonical status. I'm 24 this September. I was baptised at the age of 14 in 1991 in a Latin parish, there being no other jurisdiction around. Mum was baptised with me, but Dad remained outside the Church. At the time, I didn't even know the Orthodox or Eastern Churches existed.

Slowly as I learned of the existence of the easterns, I was drawn to them, but as there was no Eastern church that I knew of here, I stayed Roman. I got a little fed up with the local Latin church, so I stopped going to church in 96.

I won't go into great detail, but in the meantime I'd been attending SSPX and Oecumenical Patriarchate services. When I went to London for college in 98, I started attending various eastern churches in London and I decided the East was where I belonged. I adopted the Old Calendar in its entirety, both the Feasts and Fasts. I've mostly put away the Latin mindset and had to learn to rethink everything from an eastern POV. For about three years now, I've been Eastern in all but the paperwork.

Last July, my father was baptised Greek-Catholic in Singapore (where there is as yet no Greek-Catholic jurisdiction) by Fr Serge Keleher, with the blessing of Kyr Peter of Melbourne of the Ukrainians. I've heard it said that this makes me Greek-Catholic, since one follows the rite of one's father. The Easterns consider me one of their own, but the Latins insist I'm still Latin.

Yes, I know this won't matter if all I'm doing is attending Eastern services, but the thing is, I'm considering some sort of clerical service. If I'm to be even ordained Reader, I'd have to have the proper papers. Can any of you luverly Easterners tell me what my situation is?

Many thanks in advance

Yours in Domino,

Edward

Edward,

From a strictly canonical perspective you are still a member of the Latin Church. Because you were already an adult when your father became Greek-Catholic, it did not change your status as a Latin Catholic.

Considering your desire to possibly pursue a vocation, I would strongly suggest that you obtain a formal transfer of ritual Churches. This is really quite easy to to, provided that you have an Eastern priest who is willing to help you with the paperwork.

God bless,
Anthony

A minor correction to Anthony. A ritual transfer is easy if you are a praticing member of an Eastern catholic community. I'm not clear if such is the case in Singapore.

The Church would be quite reluctant to allow a transfer if no nearby parish exists. Ritual patrimony is an extention of community life, not something that exists independent of community.

K.

Edward,

Anthony is correct. You would have followed your father's faith tradition had he been already baptized at the time you were baptized. This was not the case, so you established your own pattern. Being baptized as a Latin you are, indeed, a Latin Catholic. Your lapse from the practice of the faith and susequent attendance at SSPX liturgies does not alter this position. Until and unless you are released from the Latin Church and accepted into the Eastern Catholic Church of your choice you will remain a Latin. As such no Eastern bishop could ordain you as a reader.

Edward, deacon and sinner

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Dear friends,

Thank you so much for the information! I'll get the paperwork done as soon as possible. One more question - does Mum count as Greek-Catholic? Since they had a civil marriage long ago, are they considered married in the eyes of the Church?

Thanks in advance!

Yours in Domino,

Edward

Slava Isusu Christu!

Slow down, my friend. Theosis is not a matter of paperwork, and based on your spiritual history as in the case of so many seekers is to do a thorough self-examination and examination of conscience. You also need to get a spiritual Father or director to help you work through some of the spiritual baggage and unanswered questions you have. Jurisdiction hopping would not be the answer in your case at this time, nor would living the Eastern Catholic Faith out of books. You are a baptized Catholic, you need to get right with God in the Mystery of Penance and Reconciliation and work on your soul, right now. Make a decision about Changing Ritual Churches when you have lived at least a year in a parish of your own Rite and after a year or years of discernment if you still feel the need to become Eastern Catholic then move to where an Eastern Catholic parish exists and live out your Catholic Faith fully there according to the traditions of the East. Salvation and Deification is found in the East and Western arms of the Catholic Church. Prayer, Prayer, and more Prayer is the answer not getting the paperwork done; lets just put it this way if God wants you in the Eastern Catholic Church your paperwork is already done. He will lead you to meet the right people and be at the right Church to make your journey toward the Catholic East. But right now find out the condition of your soul, be in a state of grace, pray, pray and pray, make good use of the Sacraments and go to Penance and Communion often. God knows your end from your beginning; trust Him and let Him influence those for your good; trust Him - He loves you.

In Christ,


Robert, Chief Among Sinners

I both agree and somewhat disagree with Brother Horwath.

You are indeed a Latin rite Catholic in terms of Canon Law. Your father's later baptism does not negate your baptism.

However, if you are drawn to the Eastern Church, then this is perhaps what the Holy Spirit is drawing you to. I agree with Brother Horwath that frequent prayer, confession, communion and (especially private prayer) will lead you forward.

As you are very aware, the essence of Eastern Christianity is 'koinotis' (='community') and the lack of participation in a community can be a barrier to 'being Eastern'. Find an Eastern Community within which you can prosper spiritually.

Do what you must. Keep praying. And adjoin yourself to an Eastern Community to pray.

Blessings!

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Dear Dr John and Robert,

Many thanks for your notes, but I should point out I meant what I said when I mentioned that I am now Eastern in all but the paperwork.

I'm not living a faith out of books. I've been attending Eastern services almost exclusively for over 4 years now, not to mention observing the calendar - feasts and fasts. I've been accused by smiling priest of the Moscow patriarchate of being more Orthodox than the Orthodox - I'll assume he meant it as a compliment.

I'm not jurisdiction-hopping - my spiritual father knows this and he knows my place is in the east. Unfortunately, there's no Russian Catholic parish either in London or in Singapore, so while in London I go the Moscow Patriarchate and Rocor parishes, and in Singapore I go to a Malankara Syrian Orthodox parish.

I've met people and talked and prayed - a few weeks ago I was speaking to the new Melkite Patriarch of Antioch and he agrees I'm eastern. I'm not merely "drawn" to the eastern churches - I'm living the life already. All I need are those papers done!

I fed up of my latin papers being an excuse for RCs to boot me around and tell me what to do... about how "it's a sin to miss mass on sunday" and how when I eat meat on fridays during fast-free periods they tell me it's a mortal sin.. etc.

You get the drift.

Yours in Domino,

Edward

No, I don't.

How on earth do you get drawn into such conversations? Your religious environment is Eastern, so I assume not there, and in your secular environment (London & Singapore), Roman Catholics are a minority to start with, and I can't imagine they regularly initiate conversations on such topics.

K.

Slava Isusu Christu!

Dear Edward:

I ask your forgiveness if I came across in any way not feeling your situation appropriately. I really pray that you get through the "paperwork" and hey I am sure there is much I could learn from your journey. I have never been to a ROCOR parish before or an MP one. Do they do Liturgy similar? I heard the MP is trying to reconcile with them. What an honor to speak with the new Melkite Catholic Patriarch You must be blessed by God, I am sure He will use you for His glory.

Although I still stand firm on my earlier position on examination,discernment,and prayer, I am sure that you will find your way and be assured that I will pray for your intention to be Eastern officially

In Christ and the Theotokos,


Chief Among Sinners, Robert

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Quite easily actually. I was treasurer of my college Catholic Society during the last academic year. Also, I sing in the schola for the Tridentine rite indult masses in London. Naturally, when the clique goes to the pub for a pint afterwards, there is much conversation. Now, most of this conversation is good and edifying, but once in a while there are the nuts who give me grief. These nuts ask my perspective on matters and when I express dissent from the usual Latin view, I get called names. I've been told by one fellow that until I get my papers changed, it's a mortal sin for me to miss sunday mass in a RC church (not even Greek-Catholic will do for him). :rolleyes:

Even in Singapore, I count many friends who are Latin Catholics - some even attend the SSPX chapel. This isn't even counting the feenyites and so on.

Because I love all the rites (in their fulness), I hang out with people from all sides - that's where the friction lies.

Yours in Domino,

Edward

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Dear Robert,

No need to apologise - just pray for me!

ROCOR usage tends to be fuller and more conservative - MP abbreviates things more, at least in my experience. The MP's Cathedral in London uses about an equal mix of English and Slavonic. There are two ROCOR parishes within my reach. The first is their new church in Chiswick, huge, very Russian-looking, topped with a beautiful blue dome decorated with gold stars and a huge gold cross that gleams from afar at night. That parish uses Slavonic and Russian exclusively - understandably, I don't go there much, since I don't understand Russian, I don't get much spiritual food. The other place is St Edward's Monastery, in Brookwood, Surrey. They have services entirely in English (with a sprinkling of Greek and Slavonic), but they use Greek chant, and follow the Athonite Typicon.

The MP is trying to reconcile, but personally, I think it's going to take a long time to work these things out.

The Melkite Patriarch was in London some weeks back, serving Divine Liturgy for the Melkites, and there was a delicious lunch afterwards. Quite an unforgettable day - lunch went on till 5pm!

I shall continue to pray and ask for discernment!

By the way, Robert, to which jurisdiction do you belong?

Yours in Domino,

Edward

Edward,

I know your pain. I had the exact same problem when there was an issue as to whether I was Latin Catholic or Byzantine Catholic.

Here is how I defended my attending the Divine Liturgy every Sunday.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church. (bold emphsis added)

2180. "The precept of the Church specifies the law of the Lord more precisely: 'On Sundays and other holy days of obligation the faithful are bound to participate in the Mass.'[CIC, can. 1247.] 'The precept of participating in the Mass is satisfied by assistance at a Mass which is celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the holy day or on the evening of the preceding day.'[CIC, can. 1248 # 1.]"

Here are the canons cited above.

Can. 1247 On Sundays and other holydays of obligation, the faithful are obliged to assist at Mass. They are also to abstain from such work or business that would inhibit the worship to be given to God, the joy proper to the Lord's Day, or the due relaxation of mind and body.

Can. 1248 �1 The obligation of assisting at Mass is satisfied wherever Mass is celebrated in a catholic rite either on a holyday itself or on the evening of the previous day.


I hope this helps, it sort of helped me.

Your Brother in Christ,
David

[ 11-09-2001: Message edited by: DavidB ]

I sorry to hear your Tridentine friends make such inquiries. Bad manners would be the kindest assumption.

Remind them also that the Latin Church canon:


Binds employers to made due provisions to allow the faithful to fullfill such obligation such as paid time off.

K.

Dear Edward and David,

I am sorry to hear about the problems that you've had with some Latin Catholics. That ignorance of the reality of what makes the Church Catholic appears sadly wide-spread among the members of this Church brings pain in many ways.

I hope that your courtesy and your patient evangelism about the other Churches that make up our communion bears much fruit. Until then, please know that a growing number of Latin Catholics would express the sorrow I feel.

I pray that each of us finds the Way that God intends for him or her. In doing so, may we all come to recognize the beauty and goodness of the various rooms in God's House. May our differences help us to glimpse the One who reflects Himself through them.

Steve

Joy!

Please do not permit the written expression impede the meaning or the love!