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Bless me a sinner, Fr. Elias,

Yes, yes! You've hit on its meaning exactly!

And you've also countered it with the Eastern Orthopraxis!

Brilliant!

That is my perspective as well. To be a member of the Church, to stand in it, is to have full Communion with Her in terms of Her Teaching, Mysteries - everything!

You've shown why my convert friends who work with me tell me that in the Eastern Church one cannot be a member and deny the full Divinity of Christ, or this or that.

But somehow that is possible in the Western Church.

And, again, how is that possible?

What is it in the Western understanding of church membership that would even tolerate that?

Does that occur in our Church as well, although we're Eastern?

You have answered a very important question that I find entirely spiritually and intellectually satisfying.

Alex

Alex,

Personally, the term itself is not offensive to me. I have a rather strong sense of self and am not offended by such labels. I know who I am and that's enough for me. Plus, I just about refuse to add any qualifications to my Catholic faith. To paraphrase Diogenes, "I am neither Western nor Roman but a Catholic Christian!" Some might even say the use of the term Catholic is too much of a qualifier in and of itself, but in this day and age, it's one that is necessary to some degree. But I digress...

I agree with you that when qualified and defined, the use of "American Church" or "AmChurch" should not be offensive. However, one must remember that we Yanks generally abhor anyone other than ourselves labelling us. What one person finds inoffensive, another may take extreme offense to, regardless of any preset qualifiers. I, too, as an armchair anthropologist, share your interest in the proverbial stink this term can muster. Our illustrious Administrator has, I think, hit the nail on the head, though, that we should discuss issues in a particular manner as opposed to a general one, which can and has caused a bit of confusion!

In Christ,
mikey.

Father Elias,

It is not only the Eastern Church that is perplexed, but many of us Westerners as well! Indeed, how can one profess to be a member of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church and support the killing of the unborn? How can one claim to be Catholic and refuse to be obedient to one's bishop? A popular defense such disobedient souls is that, "Well, we're concerned about the 'big' things. Your 'little' things don't matter when you look at the 'big' picture." But did not Christ tell us that those who love Him would follow his instructions to the smallest detail? The attitude of disobedient Catholics is one of Unitarian Universalists and Ethicists. The only difference, it seems, is that the Catholics go to Mass every week...or every other week...or once a month. After all, going to church on Sunday doesn't matter because it's one of those 'little' things.

In Christ,
mikey.

Dear Mikey,

Well, then I think you agree with me when I say that Fr. Elias has properly identified what this issue is all about.

Being in the Church and yet rejecting the faith and morals as handed down by the Church.

I don't care for the "stink" this term causes, only why the stink is there to begin with.

And I think that I now really do understand what Brendan and Serge and other converts to Orthodoxy were talking about way back when regarding their experiences in this regard.

Mother Angelica's website tries to address this by speaking disparagingly (and rightly so) of Catholics supporting abortion "free choice" etc.

The idea that there would be people in my Church who would be standing next to me but who are in open violation of basic Church teaching regarding faith and morals would drive me crazy.

Or to the Eastern Church.

Alex

Alex,

I think that the idea that one can be a full member of the Church but deny basic truths comes from our Protestant brethren and their idea of the "invisible" church. All that matters, to a Protestant (of course I'm speaking in general terms..yikes!), is that one accepts Christ Jesus as one's personal Lord and Savior. After that, it's pretty much up to the individual Christian as to what he or she believes in regards to this truth or that truth.

Of course, such a notion is abhorrent to us of the Apostolic Faith. But the United States was founded upon such religious plurality. After 200 years, this idea has crept into the Church, like the serpent in the Garden of Eden. A whisper in this ear, a whisper in that one, and before you know it, this entire concept that started this whole discussion rears its ugly head. Soon enough, the Faith itself becomes the topic of democratic debate, like it can be changed like the laws of our country. People don't look to the Fathers for advice on Revelation, but debate it like an ammendment in the Senate.

There are those of us in the West who are just as perplexed.

In Christ,
mikey.

Alex,

I rememember reading a number of posts way back in the not too distant past relating to the term "AmChurch". At the time no less than than the Admin asked members to refrain from using this perjorative term. You were part of those discussions, so why do you insist on using the term when the Admin has asked us to stop?

I would hope that this type of thread is not going to start all over again.

Alex,

Let me examine, for a moment, one of the propositions you've raised -- the concept of being within the Church and yet denying the teachings of the Church. You raised this issue as a "secular sociologist" so I will respond with some terms used by another sociologist, Fr. Andrew Greely. He discusses this in his book <i>The Catholic Myth</i> in which he uses the term "cultural Catholic" and claims that Catholics (he uses this term exclusively in reference to members of the Latin Church) reamin in the Church because they like the rituals and symbols, not because (or, at least, not exclusively because) they believe what the Church teaches.

My experience in my Melkite parish says that it is possible to be a Melkite simply because one is an Arabic Eastern Catholic whose family was Melkite. Attendance at Church is certainly not a criteria for this membership. I recently had a conversation with someone who wanted to schedule a funeral at my parish. He claimed to be a member of the parish. I didn't recognize the name, yet he claimed to have been a member for a long time -- and wanted to know how Fr. Nick was doing. Of course, Fr. Nick is now Bishop Nicholas (Samra) who hasn't been in the parish in over 20 years!

With regard to why the term "AmChurch" is offensive -- it's because those who are more than cultural Catholics find it to be both denigrating (as if to reduce their allegiance to the Catholic Church led by the pope.

Edward, deacon and sinner

Alex,

Indeed! The more I come across liturgical abuses and the more I'm subjected to the ads of CFFC, the more I also understand what sends some of our brethren to Orthodoxy or to the Lefebrevists (or, in extreme cases, to the sedevacatanists). Fortunately, I blessed enough to grow up in a typical post-Vatican 2 parish where the Faith was taught, well, faithfully! After I went AWOL for a while during college, I was blessed once again to return to the Church in a diocese where abuse and disobedience is limited; it exists, I'm sure, but I'm not subjected to it day in and day out. I was also blessed to return to the Church in an area where the local ordinaries are generous in allowing the Tridentine Mass to be celebrated, the beauty of which did much to bring me back home.

However, it seems that further one gets from Rome in this country geographically, the further one gets from obedience and fidelity to the Latin Church. I often hear of people out in Nevada or Montana who attend Masses that might as well be a Lutheran Communion service from their description! Surely being subjected to such liturgies week in and week out would drive a faithful Catholic to seek solace elsewhere! If one does not have a Lefebrevist community nearby, then Orthodoxy looks pretty good!

In Christ,
mikey.

But a word of caution...

If the Western Church leans toward identifying "faith" too closely with a set of intellectual teachings, dogmas, or 'worded' formulations of the faith, (...a Catechism?) we must not go there.

Could I be so bold to wonder if the 'real' Eastern sense is not simply to be more correct or historically faithful than others?

Of course, our response to God will draw us to be faithful, and sing our praises of God fully within the tradition of the Church, and profess the same exact faith which was taught by Christ, and has been conveyed to us the Apostles and the Fathers of our Church.

In such a full living of the faith, there is no room for error. But we should still not equate Orthodoxy with any merely intellectual rigour or entrust it to a vigilance by "mind-control police". (We might witness some Orthodox lists, where ever smaller groups of faithful believers, beat other Orthodox over the head for tiny infractions against some part of a the tradition (with a small "t"). This can evolve into a kind of fundamentalism, which is neither Orthodox nor Traditional.) Perfection is in God, and in us, insofar as we live in Him. It is never in us by virtue of our education or worldly-clever reasoning.

Orthodoxy and Orthodpraxis is to live in God, to be fully identified with his life and call, and to struggle all our lives to be faithful. "We have seen the True Light..." He is Truth, and this cannot be reduced to 'catechisms' or even cherished 20th century dogmatic formulations. The Lord is God, and He (not firstly dogma) is revealed to us!

So let us be cautious, not to imply that Orthodoxy implies a "straight-jacket" of intellectual conformity, or a strictly confining obedience to any hierarch, no matter where he lives. Is that not a western idea, answering a western problem?

Though we are rational and thinking men, and our minds serve us as we serve God, ...our experience of Church and 'communion' is, in a deeper sense, foundationally non-intellectual.

Our essential unity is found in the unity of the Godhead, who informs, enlivens, and ever draws his Church to reflect more perfectly the image born it it by baptism and grace. Our union is in Him, and to Him be all Glory!

Elias

What I meant to say... is that I am pleased that we are avoiding the actual term used in the title, trying to identify why it is problematic.

seeing as im not an intellectual, nor know as much as i shoulf about my own religion, i will not try and say anything on this topic one way or another, but just to agree with mikey. In my own family i've seen those who say "yes we are Catholic, of course" but still have their own "issues with the church". When i heard, "it doesnt matter if we go to church every week, its the kind of life you lead" i didnt know what to say and had to resist asking if they had become protestant without my knowing.

I for one am very confused about the goings on and agree completely that it seems to come out of the basis upon which this country was founded, and is now being perpetuated on religion.

I wish there could be some way to reverse what has happened, some solution...some turn to the east, then others are stuck shrugging their shoulders.

As a person who is pro-life, against unorthodox social gospel notions and against liturgical liberalism, I stand totally opposed to AmChurch.

I would invite others to join me in this cause.

Axios

Amen!
(just wish we knew what we could do)

Christ Is Risen!

This topic is also spoken of a great deal in the Eastern Orthodox Churches and Jurisdictions throughout the World. Instead of addressing it as the "AMChurch" it is addressed as the American Culture.

One of the greatest fears of "world Orthodoxy "
is the effect of the American Cultural Impact upon Eastern Orthodoxy---american consumerism, worldliness, pornography, lack of moral standards, and violence as seen in movies and TV---these are greatly feared in the other parts of the Orthodox world. They view this "modernism" as diametrically opposed to the aesetic culture of the Eastern Orthodox Church.

One sees this impact the greatest in the Communist nations where full orthodoxy was prosecuted and limited leaving a void in people that with the arroval of glastnost and eventual freedom, many tried to fill with American lifestyles that include sex, drugs, and rock-n-roll.

In the United States, many converts to Orthodoxy are converting to flee the wasteful and sinful lifestyle of American Popular Culture. It is sad that some, but not all, of our cradle orthodox in their rush to come "American" have forgotten their spiritual cultural base.

So we too face the challenge of American Society upon the Church. A challenge which seeks to remold Orthodoxy into an American Church that embraces all that is bad in American Culture and belief.

Your brother in Christ,
Thomas

Again, I agree with Thomas. American culture, with sinful levels of racism, homophobia, sexism, individualism, disregard for the poor and those in need of health care is a moral outrage.

We live in the richest society I the world yet allow homelessness and poverty. We have the highest attendence of Sunday worship, only proving that our American churches are full of hypocrites.

where is the God of love and tolerance in this country? Save us from AmChurch.

Axios

[ 05-10-2002: Message edited by: Axios ]