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After all of the definitions offered on "secular", "ages", and "aeons", I finally understand that the old translation "world without end", actually does make sense.

The parsing of the opening of the Anaphora has been commented on extensively. I want to add a comment, even at the risk of being sheeshed.

I think that the the problem is not in structure of the response but in the address. In Slavonic and Greek the word order is something like this:
"..., as the Holy Anaphora, in peace, we offer ..."
with the object first, and the verb last.
The response in effect repeats (with elaboration) the object in its natural position following the verb. So the structure is very nice and poetic.

In English we have the prepositional phrase last
"... as we offer the Holy Anaphora in peace"
The repsonse does not follow smoothly, but in fact gets confused by the echoing of "peace": the structure makes it seems like "mercy" and "peace" refer to the manner of the offering rather than the offering itself.

In Slovak, by the way, the object is last:
"... as, in peace, we offer, the Holy Anaphora".
The response then appositionally elaborates the object. It's smooth and grammatical in English.

djs

"Mercy, Peace, a sacrifice of praise."

I'm not sure that Fr. David intended this, but the proximity of his explanation on the litanies of peace and this proclamation raise the possibility that this is the answer to those earlier prayers. We are achieving the three dimensions of peace as the liturgy unfolds. A symmetry of sorts is accomplished via this construction.

John

[ 08-04-2002: Message edited by: Petrus ]

Will be on hiatus until August 15 - out of town business.

Fr. Dave

I've had several additional thoughts regarding the translation:

Re: Father vs Master

Since during the liturgy the presbyter or Bishop is fulfilling his sacramental function, it seems very appropriate and reasonable to utilize either title. They both refer to God the Father, the presbyter or the bishop represents His sacramental agent.

Re: Mercy, Peace, a sacrifice of praise.

In reading the other entries to this thread, there seems to be some discomfort with this formulation as being an incomplete thought. I ponder if the problem is not one of translation but one of punctuation. Would it be more correct to say: Mercy! Peace! A sacrifice of praise!

Re: use of Kingdom (as opposed to reign, sovereignty, etc.)

Kingdom is probably the most succinct. It must be remembered that what is being expressed is the Jewish understanding of Kingdom as most aptly expressed in Deuteronomy 33:5:

And he became king of his darling, When the chiefs of the people assembled and the tribes of Israel came together.

In this context, the kingdom is a realization of the eschatological promise. God as king of his "darling," his spouse, his Church, his people living in unity.

Re: abridging the antiphons

I'm not touching this one for anything. Although, I do realize and wish to reiterate that other Byzantine jurisdictions (e.g. the Greeks) have also "modified" this portion of the liturgy.

With that, I await Fr. David's return.

John

Comparative translations:

Use of Father (as opposed to Master) for translation of Vladyko,

Father is used by the Melkites, Antiochian Orthodox, and even the Hapgood translation. I found a Ukrainian translation that uses "Sir" (I doubt anyone here would vote for that one) and the Hapgood translation notes that "Master" should be used when a bishop is presiding only. I could not find a Greek Orthodox translation that included this request at the beginning of the liturgy.

Re: Mercy, Peace, a sacrifice of praise.

I found a Serbian Orthodox translation that uses "Mercy and Peace, a sacrifice of praise."

Just a few additional points in support.

John

A few more comments about structure. We know from manuscripts that originally the antiphons were sung as people processed from church to church. In the first millennium, there were no parish churches as we know them today. Haghia Sophia (the great Church) was the Church of the city of Constantinople. Since the population may have reached a half million, though, they couldn't all fit in the one church. Liturgies were stational. If the main Liturgy was at, say, Sts. Sergius and Bacchus, then the people would meet at another church, say, Blachernae, then process to St. Theodore's (the city was more compact than modern cities), then to Sts. Sergius and Bacchus. As they processed they would sing a psalm with a troparion, and arriving at the next point (church) they would stop for a litany and prayer. Then to the next church, then to the main church of the day (this was almost always done in three's). The last psalm with troparia was Psalm 94, "Come, let us worship ... " which was perfect for an entrance psalm. The structure then was: Procession with Psalm + Troparion (Antiphon) - Litany - Prayer. Procession with Psalm + Troparion - Litany - prayer. Procession to main church with Psalm + Troparion - Litany Prayer of Entrance to church. This prayer is still said today. Later these procession just dropped out, but the antiphons remained. The Great Litany at the beginning moved to this place (we have documentation on this) when processions dropped out, but the Office of Three Antiphons (now reduced to three verses) remained, now sung in Church. The purpose of moving the Great Litany, which originally was after the Gospel and before the Eucharistic Liturgy was to give the people a chance to settle down ("In PEACE (good order) let us pray to the Lord." This new structure of the Liturgy has been in place now for centuries, and no one is advocating removing it (maybe some are here and there, but no one official) and one of the chief objections of many people has been the reduction to two verses (the first and last). In regard to this structure, it should be noted that the final troparion, changing from the usual refrain, the change is called a perissos) for the second antiphon is the well-beloved Hymn of the Incarnation, written by Justinian (or someone in his service). (I'm going to start another thread = the 10 Most Favorite Byzantine Hymns). The final troparion of the Third Antiphon is changeable = the Troparion - and then now also the Kontakion, and even a Theotokion of the day. This last is a part of the Third Antiphon. Sometimes the Izobrazitelnaja are substituted for the antiphons, these are taken from a monastic service of Communion. They don't fit well into the structure, because the "Third Antiphon" then becomes the Beatitudes, and yet you still sing the Entrance Hymn from verse 6 of Psalm 94, the entrance Third Antiphon. (Again, I'm not advocating ignoring the Izobrazitelnaja - Typical Psalms, though the Ruthenians sing them less frequently than other churches). I've also seen "mix and match" in some parishes - the First and Second Antiphons as usual - then the Beatitudes - then the Entrance Hymn from Psalm 94 ("Come, let us worship and bow before Christ" - note that the Church interpreted Psalm 94 here to mean Christ, they were freer with Scripture in the early centuries). Connected with the antiphons are the prayers of the Three Antiphons. They were probably moved forward in the Liturgy when the Great Litany moved to the beginning. However, we don't have documentation on this. The ancient structure was Litany (priest said a prayer silently to himself) - concluding prayer (exactly equivalent to the Roman "Collect") and a Prayer of the Bowing of Heads (a prayer of blessing for those leaving, it is possible that those not going to Communion didn't stay for the eucharist). I already pointed out that the prayer of the First Antiphon is an appropriate conclusion for the Litany of Peace. The Prayer of the Second Antiphon was probably the Prayer of the Bowing of Heads = dismissal, and indeed it is exactly the same, word for word, with the first part of the standard Ambon Prayer, which was the last prayer (hence, dismissal) of the Liturgy. The Prayer of the Third Antiphon (one of the few in the Byzantine Church addressed to Christ) was possibly the Prayer the priest read silently during the Litany, as he asks the Lord to accept the prayer of two or three gathered in your name.

John,

Hapgood has the deacon saying: "Bless, Master" (page 67 top).
The Antiochian Liturgicon (1989 edition) uses: "Bless, Master" (page 257).
The Oxford Liturgicon (1995 edition) uses: "Master, give the blessing" (page 3).
The OCA 1977 edition uses: "Master, Bless" (page 29).
You are correct in that Raya uses the innovation "Father".

This is interesting. I seem to remember that the deacon very specifically uses "Master" in some places and "Father" in others in our Divine Services. Maybe I can find the time this week to look through some of our books.

Admin

I do not question Fr. David's account of the development of the Office of the Three Antiphons. He is a scholar of liturgical history and has probably forgotten more than I will ever know.

I point out that the Office of the Three Antiphons has not really been a procession and entrance rite for a millennium. During this time it has become an integral part of our Divine Liturgy and ought not to be gutted. Whether one does the traditional antiphons of the Great Church of Constantinople or uses the typical psalms, the Office of the Three Antiphons (with litanies) works! It is a wonderful and beautiful part of our liturgical inheritance and has moved from being something very practical to something that fills the need to call the people to prayer. It very effectively primes the prayer and singing pump. It may seem awkward from a historical, scholarly point of view but from the view of a liturgy that works and flows well it is perfect when celebrated according to the received custom.

In my 25 years of cantoring and publishing liturgical music the most positive feedback I have ever received from parishes is for my arrangements of the Typical Psalms and the Beatitudes to Russian Tone 1. Every parish that has adapted the use of the Typical Psalms for occasional use has reported that they work wonderfully and have been a blessing to their liturgical life.

On this I would agree. The spirituality of the Beatitudes is priceless! This is something we should sing more often in our parishes!

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

[ 08-19-2002: Message edited by: DTBrown ]

Dear Administrator:

A million apologies. I quoted the wrong book. It was not the Hapgood translation but rather the second edition of the Antiochian's Liturgikon. On page 6 under the heading: The Beginning of Divine Services, we find:

Bless, Father:
When a priest is serving with no bishop present, it is usual to say Bless, father, but when a bishop is serving or is presiding from his throne, it is proper to say Bless, Master.

You are correct on the Hapgood usage.

Once again, sorry

John

Administrator:

I would have to concur with your comments on the typical psalms and the beatitudes. I agree they are a "crowd pleaser."

John

Ditto for the typica and beatitudes. I am sure if we asked the parish for the favorite hymns during the Liturgy, the beatitudes would be high on the list! The sing them well and with love.

Double ditto. In the argot of the youth of our church, the typica and beatitudes "RULE!"

[ 09-09-2002: Message edited by: J Thur ]

VI

After the Third Antiphon, the ancient entrance rite into the Church, the Trisagion is sung. I personally suspect that the Trisagion was itself the first entrance rite, since it first appearance in history - at the Council of Chalcedon in 451 - it accompanied the entrance of the bishops. It is sung three times, and originally had psalm versicles in between, which were probably the verses sung today by the bishop at the beginning of the Liturgy: Look down, O Lord, and bless this vineyard which your right hand has planted .... This is interesting, but not too important for its present usage, and it is certainly one of the all-time favorite hymns of the Eastern Church, found not only in the Byzantine Church, but in the other branches of the Eastern Church also. There was a controversy between the Oriental Orthodox Churches and the Byzantine Church about its meaning. The Oriental Orthodox applied it to Christ, and therefore made insertions, so as, "Holy God, Holy and Mighty, Holy and Immortal, crucified for us, have mercy on us." The Byzantines consistently applied it to the Triune God: Holy God ( = Father), Holy and Mighty (= Son), Holy and Immortal (= Spirit), have mercy on us. This disagreement became very bitter in less tolerant times. We do have an explicit witness to how this hymn was composed from a fragment of a document written by a monk and found in the ancient library of the Patriarch Photius. Hesaid it was a combination of the passage from the Prophecy of Isaiah, where the heavenly hymn of the angels was revealed, "Holy, holy, holy," (hence the name of the Hymn, Trisagion, Thrice-holy) and Psalm 41:3, "Holy is God, strong and living (changed to immortal for the sake of the chant). This is remarkably not the present Septuagint text of the Psalm, but is found in an alternate version of Scripture. The hymn is unusual, in that the first phrase is declarative and the second phrase imperative, thus literally: Holy (is) God; (he is) holy and strong (or mighty); (he is) holy and immortal: (then addressed to this God) have mercy on us. This hymn was not changed from the 1965 English translation, thus: Holy God, Holy and Mighty, Holy and Immortal, have mercy on us.