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Dear Cantor Joe,

While we're at it here, how is "Blahodat" - "mercy?"

Doesn't the first refer to Grace or Uncreated Energy?

And doesn't the English "mercy" dilute the meaning here?

A question I always wanted to know about but was afraid to ask about.

Alex

[QUOTE]Originally posted by J Thur:
[QB]Stuart,

>>>Such as: "Mercy, peace, the sacrifice of praise."

Mercy, peace what? Sacrifice of praise at least has "the" before it. Is mercy and peace a request (Grant us mercy and peace, O Lord), a noun (Mercy and peace is here) or an adjective (a merciful and peaceful sacrifice of praise)?<<<

Apparently that's what the oldest Greek texts say: "Mercy, peace, the Sacrifice of praise". As to what it means, that's where historical/critical methods are needed. I assume Father Taft has already done this in his analysis of the anaphora, but I haven't read that far,yet. I would assume, in keeping with the general tenor of other parts of the Liturgy, that it is indeed a request for mercy and peace, but I could be wrong. In any case, the common Orthodox translation of "A mercy of peace, the sacrifice of praise" is not only meaningless, it's bad grammar; our "the offering of peace, the sacrifice of praise" at least makes grammatical sense, but doesn't really illuminate much, does it?

[ 09-09-2002: Message edited by: J Thur ]

Dear Joe,

Then you are obviously adept at "well-oiling" others!

That's a good personality trait to have, especially if you're going to be rubbing sacerdotal shoulders with bishops as a future deacon and priest .

Just be careful all that "oil" of yours doesn't drip on the bishop's expensive rugs.

He'll really "haul you up on the carpet" for that!

What can I say, Big Guy, it's "Thur's Day!"

Alex

[ 08-01-2002: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

Two separate issues:

1) What do the texts say?

"Before the beginning of the Anaphora, the great prayer of offering, there is an opening dialogue. The celebrant or deacon says, "Let us stand aright, let us stand with fear." Then the people respond, in the correct text, "Mercy. Peace. A sacrifice of praise." In fact in most churches they say, "a mercy of peace," but that does not make very good sense. If we consult the older Greek manuscripts we find, "Mercy. Peace. A sacrifice of praise." April 1999 / fourth lecture by Bishop Kallistos
http://www.incommunion.org/kal4.htm

2) How to render poetic language into expository English without losing the poetry.
A nice guidline from the survey of EO translations: wordy and explanatory translations are rarely successful

"Some of the comments to be made below about &#8220;Holy Things unto the Holy&#8221; also apply to the conclusion to this prayer, &#8220;Thine own of thine own ... &#8220; In other words, wordy and explanatory translations are rarely successful. The worst offenders in this respect are the Greek Archdiocese of America (&#8220;We offer to you these Gifts from Your own gifts in all and for all&#8221 and Thyateira II (&#8220;Offering you your own of your own &#8212; in all things and for all things&#8221 .

Finally, let us take a brief glance at another venerable moment in our Liturgy, the exclamation of the priest &#8220;Holy Things unto the Holy&#8221; (Hapgood's version) and its response &#8220;One is Holy ... &#8220; Here the translator faces the opposing temptations of trying to expand the translation into an explanatory paraphrase or to retain the succinctness of the original and risk obscurity. The Greek uses four words (the Slavonic magnificently manages with two): ta agia tois agiois. The Greek Cathedral, Fellowship, Thyateira I and the Greek Archdiocese are the worst for verbosity: &#8220;The Holy Gifts for the holy people of God&#8221; explains the last helpfully. On the other hand Boston is probably too succinct with &#8220;The Holies for the holy&#8221; (a good example of a translator assuming people can hear upper and lower cases.) Surely the best solution would be &#8220;Holy Things for the holy?&#8221; Even Antioch II and Thyateira II do not manage this, the first adding an initial article and an &#8220;are&#8221;, the latter just the article. Both are unnecessary.

THE DIVINE LITURGY IN ENGLISH:A BRIEF SURVEY OF
VERSIONS IN CURRENT USE
BY JOHN M. HARWOOD, B.SC., A.L.A.
http://www.antiochian.org/Midwest/Articles/Divine_Liturgy_In_EnglishNB.htm

djs

[ 08-01-2002: Message edited by: djs ]

Instead of saying just "Mercy, peace, the sacrifice of praise", we say (roughly translated from Malayalam) "This Qurbana is Mercy, Peace, and a Sacrifice of Praise".

Makes more sense to me than the former.

From dictionary.com:
sec�u�lar adj.
1)Worldly rather than spiritual.
...
5)Occurring or observed once in an age or century.
6)Lasting from century to century.

"Secular" carries the meaning of belonging to an age, but "age" is so plastic that it can mean anything from years to centuries, to all time.
Like "cleave", "secular" carries meanings that are essentially opposite.

Equations that describe physical certain physical phenomena can ofter be separated into a part that summarizes the dependence on time, and another part that summarizes the time-independent behavior. (A "standing wave" provides a nice example - the oscillation directly involves time, but the postion of the peaks and nodes of the wave are time-independent). In mechanics, these time-independent equations are called "secular" equations, following definition 6 above. This use of "secular" is puzzling to those first encountering it. The translation of "saecula saeculorum" as "forever" illuminates this use of "secular".

Question for Father David:
What is the earliest English translation of the liturgy that was "approved" in our Eparchy? Certainly we used "ever and forever" well-before 1965. Did this translation antedate Hapgood?

djs

[ 08-01-2002: Message edited by: djs ]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mor Ephrem:
[QB]>>>Instead of saying just "Mercy, peace, the sacrifice of praise", we say (roughly translated from Malayalam) "This Qurbana is Mercy, Peace, and a Sacrifice of Praise".<<<

Given the age of the Qurbana, and the presumed age of the dialogue, then I would be inclined to give precedence to the Assyrian interpretation, that "mercy, peace, and sacrifice of praise" all refer to the offering, and not, as I had assumed, to an intercession on the one hand and the offering on the other.

I think this thread is getting a little ahead of itself. I wish to return to the "ages of ages" discussion. I found a fascinating definition of "Age" in the Philokalia glossary:

Age (aeon): The ensemble of cosmic duration. It includes the angelic orders, and is an attribute of God as the principle and consummation of all the centuries created by Him. The term is used more particularly in two ways:

1) Frequently a distinction is made between the "present age" and "the age to come" or "the new age". The first corresponds to our present sense of time, the second to time as it exists in God, that is, to eternity understood, not as endless time, but as the simultaneous presence of all time. Our present sense of time, according to which we expereince time as sundered from God, is the consequence of the loss of vision and spiritual perception occasioned by the fall and is on this account more or less illusory. In reality time is not and never can be sundered from God, the "present age" from the "age to come". Because of this the "age to come" and its realities must be thought of, not as non-existent or as coming into existence in the future, but as actualities that by as coming into existence in the future, but as actualities that by grace we can experience in the here and now. To indicate this, the Greek phrase for these realities ta mellonta) is often translated as "the blessings held in store."

2) Certain texts, especially in St. Maximos the Confessor, also se the temr aeon in a connected but more specific way, to denote a level intermediate between eternity in the full sense (aidiotis) and time as known to us in our present experience (chronos). Where this is the case we normally emply the rendering "aeon" instead of "age". There are thus three levels:

a) eternity, the totum simul or simultaneous presence of all time and reality as known to God, who alone has neither origin nor end, and who therefore is alone eternal in the full sense:

b) the aeon, the totum simul as known to the angels, and also to human persons who possess experience of the "age to come": although having no end, these angelic or human beings, since they are created, are not self-originating and therefore are not eternal in the sense that God is eternal:

c) time, that is, temporal succession as known to us in the "present age."

I recognize I am being fickle, but I am leaning toward "age" or "ages of ages" as a result. In deference to Stuart who proposed aeon, while I cannot disagree completely, age seems to imply a theological expression that is more expansive.

John

The phrase in question here at the beginning of the Anaphora indeed refers to the sacrifice that is about to be offered, rather than our disposition towards it. We respond to the deacon's invitation "Let us stand aright, let us stand in awe, let us be attentive, to offer the holy oblation in peace" with the affirmation that the oblation (or sacrifice) is, "mercy, peace, (and) a sacrifice of praise.

Mercy here, in Church Slavonic, is translated from "milost'" (Ukr.: "mylist"), meaning mercy in the sense of kindness, love or graciousness. In matins, we sing, "For His mercy (sometimes rendered: kindness or love) endures forever." - Jako vo viki milost' jeho."

Alex: Yes, "blahodat'" is more particularly "grace" as in the blessing, "The Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God and Father and the communion in the Holy Spirit, be with all of you." This is indeed the same "Grace" that is the uncreated energy of God, expressed so well by St. Gregory Palamas and others. It is the Grace bestowed through the sacraments. In this way, it is also the "Divine Grace which heals all that is infirm . . . " through which the Holy Spirit works to raise one to a role of apostolic service in the church.

Have some have occasionally translated "blahodat'" as mercy? I have not noticed this. In this case, it would appear to be a confusion with the term, "milost'."

While there can sometimes be a "fine line" in translating these two terms into English, "blahodat'" and "milost'", they are clearly two distinct concepts in the original languages, one a concrete reality (as in the very essence of the Deity) and the other an attribute (of God).

Fr. Joe

Dear Stuart,

The quotation I presented wasn't from the Assyrian Liturgy used in India, but from the Syriac Liturgy of Saint James. Nevertheless, the senses in both are the same, it seems to me.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Petrus:
>>>I think this thread is getting a little ahead of itself. I wish to return to the "ages of ages" discussion. I found a fascinating definition of "Age" in the Philokalia glossary:<<<

A somewhat shorter definition is given in Jaroslav Pelikan's "Christianity and Classical Culture", as follows:

Aeon: Age, era; "saeculum" in Latin, usually "world" in older English translations. Bauer 17-28:

"1. A very long time, eternity--

a. of time gone by, the earliest times, and then eternity;
b. of time to come, which, if it has no end, is also known as eternity.

2. A segment of time, age--

a. the present age (nearing its end);
b. the age to come, the Messianic period.

3. The world as a spatial concept."

Florovsky 8:209:

"Gregory [of Nyssa] maintains a clear distinction between the terms aeonios (from aeon) and aedios (from aei). He never applies the second term to the torments of hell, and he never applies the first term to bliss or the Deity. 'Aei' designates that which is superior to time or outside of time. This is the sphere of Divinity. Creation, however, abides within time, 'and can be measured by the passing of the centuries'. Aeon designates temporality, that which occurs within time."

After the opening blessing, the Divine Liturgy begins with the Litany of Peace. It is so-called because the first three petitions are for "peace." From the context there are three different kinds of peace. The first is simple peace in the assembly - no loud talking, no distractions, no rustling about, attention for the service. The second for the spiritual peace promised by Christ, "Peace I leave with you, my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give to you." (John 14:27) The third is for world peace, which in the end is not obtainable by human efforts alone. Because we are totally dependent on God for all good gifts, our response is: "Lord, have mercy." There
are some differences in the translation of the restored Liturgy. "Priesthood" becomes "presbyterate," corresponding to the more ancient Greek word used here, "presbyteros." Interestingly, the English word priest derives from "presbyteros," "elder." "Civil authorities" becomes "government." "Seasonable weather," becomes "favorable" (Greek, "eukrasias") weather. This was often the brunt of comments, so "you're praying for �seasonable' weather - snowstorms in the winter and heat waves in the summer. The petition os actually to avoid violent weather, as the Anaphora of St. Basil puts it, "Grant us a healthful and agreeable climate and gentle showers upon the earth that it may be fruitful." Travel by "air" has been added to meet a modern need. Finally, we chose the stronger word, "commit," to replace "commend." "Let us commit ourselves and one another, and our whole life, to Christ our God."
The prayer at the end of the Litany corresponds exactly to what the Roman rite calls a "collect," that is, it summarizes the whole litany. Since "mercy is mentioned over and over again, we pray to God, who is "merciful without limits." We ask him to "look with compassion on us," and "show us the riches of your tender mercy." For this reason, the prayer is chosen for public recitation.

Just to respond to some loose ends in this thread:

The 1965 translation was the first official translation in the Ruthenian metropolia. There were other translations that preceded it. As near as I can figure, the first English Liturgy was offered in 1947 in the Youngstown area, but i have no more specifics on it. English Liturgies, of course, were offered earlier in the Orthodox Church. I gave a talk on this in Stamford in 1998, and it was published in Logos: "A Survey of the Liturgical Translations of the Byzantine Catholic metropolia," Logos 39 (1998), 241-266.

"Mercy, peace, a sacrifice of praise," does mean that the Anaphora is = Mercy = peace = a sacrifice of praise. To quote Fr. Taft, "[The anaphora] is God's mercy brought to them in the forgiveness and salvation won by and represented in the sacrifice of Christ; it is peace, that peace of Christ which the world cannot give, of which he spoke in the Gospel of John (14:27; 16:33); it is their sacrifice of praise, offered to the Father through the hands of His Son by the power of His Holy Spirit," ("The Diaconal Admonition before the Anaphora," Orientalia Christiana Periodica 49 (1983), p. 364.
This article was the basis for our translation.

In the various threads on the Liturgy, antiphons have been one of the stickiest points.
An Antiphon is = a psalm sung with a (usually short) Troparion as a refrain, for example, "Through the prayers of the Mother of God, O Savior, save us.," "O Son of God, risen from the dead, save us who sing to you, alleluia!" The Glory .. Troparion for the Second Antiphon is longer, the well-known and beloved Hymn of the Incarnation. The final Troparion for the Third Antiphon is the Troparion of the day. For feasts of our Lord, the Troparion of the Feast is the refrain for each verse of the Antiphon. Antiphons are variable, they is one set for Sundays, one set for Weekdays, unique sets for each of the Feasts of our Lord, and sometimes the Typica (Psalms 103, 145 and the Beatitudes) on more festive days. The Typica are actually taken from the Monastic Rite for Holy Communion.
In the Restored Liturgy, all three antiphons are given, but only the first verse and the Glory ... verse. A couple of preliminary observations: 1) since antiphons become to the changeable parts of the Liturgy, they are not actually included in the Liturgicon. The full texts of the Antiphons (in Church Slavonic originals) are found the the Apostol (Book of Epistles). Therefore, they are included in the Restored Liturgicon only as a convenience. 2) The practice of singing only the first verse of the Antiphon (plus its Glory ... ) has long been the standard practice of the Ruthenian Metropolia, I remember this being done from my childhood (which is getting further and further in the past). If one accuses the Inter-eparchial Liturgy Commission of anything, it is for not restoring the practice of singing three verses, rather than for cutting done, and, at least, it did restore (partially) the Third Antiphon. What people have not realized is that the Third Antiphon has always been sung, because the Troparion and Kontakion are actually the conclusion of the Third Antiphon, more on this later.
Nor are we the only ones who shorten antiphons. The Russians generally sing all three (or sometimes four) verses (which is already a shortening of the psalm, as I remarked elsewhere), but they do shorten the Typica (Izobrazitelnaja), shortening Psalm 103 (104) to a couple of verse and 145 (146) to one verse, though they do sing the whole of the Beatitudes. Different people have had different experiences, but I've been in a number of Greek Orthodox Churches (not all do this) where the Antiphons have suppressed the psalms and only the short Troparia are sung: thus, First Antiphon:
- Through the prayers of the Mother of God, O Savior, save us.
- Through the prayers of the Mother of God, O Savior, save us.
- Through the prayers of the Mother of God, O Savior, save us.
- Glory to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, now and ever and forever, amen.
This illustrates a common liturgical law - when the Liturgy is shortened, for whatever reason, it's usually the Scripture that is the first to go, so: 1) the reading from the Old Testament was dropped; 2) the Prokeimenon was reduced to two verses of the psalm; 3) the Communion Hymn was reduced to one verse of the Psalm; 4) Antiphons were reduced to three (sometimes four) verses of the psalm; 5) the Psalm verses between the Trisagion and the Cherubicon were dropped out, 6) in Matins, the Scriptural Canons at the Odes have all but disappeared (except in monasteries during the Great Fast), etc., etc. I wish this were a practice that could be reversed.
There are few translations issues for the Inter-eparchial Liturgy Commission proposed Liturgy - as a sung part of the Liturgy, we have left the text of the Antiphons pretty much as is. The only questions that have been raised seem to be structural.