www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Mary: Holy and Pure since her conception?

Dear Marshall,

Well, I chalk it up to OOD's tender age ... .

There is a qualitative difference here in that Orthodoxy doesn't affirm the bodily Assumption of the Mother of God as a part of Divine Faith, such as is contained in the Creeds and teaching concerning the Trinity, Christ and Salvation.

It is part of the inner life of the Church, her liturgical heritage that isn't "doctrinalized" as it is in the RC Church.

That doesn't make it any less important or make it something that one "may or may not" believe.

Perhaps OOD is having an off day?

The Fast has been long and gruelling.

Alex

Marshal,

Christ is Risen!

I think your approach is very Orthodox/orthodox. I think that since traditionally the Eastern Churches have not "defined" as dogmas matters concerning the conception and dormition and assumption of the Mother of God, the Eastern Christian must flow with the flow of his Liturgy. Our faith is nourished primarily through the celebration of the liturgies of the Church. As you noted, how can I chant the prayers of the Marian feasts and be untouched, unformed by them? Orthodoxy means both "right worship" and "right profession (of faith)". The Church's Liturgy is a sure indication of the Church's belief. Otherwise why do we pray in such a way?

Robert K,

You thus reveal that your "conversion" to Orthodoxy was false and based on your love for wearing Russian clothes and Slavonic liturgies--a language you don't even understand!

Did you ever read, "Orthodoxy Psychotherapy" and "Life after Death" by Metropolitan Hierotheos of Nafpaktos? (see excerpts at www.pelagia.org) [pelagia.org)] He does a masterful job of showing why we do not believe in the western conceptions of purgatory, indulgences, and merits. Now I, as an Eastern Catholic, do not believe these things are heretical; rather I tend to see them as products of the Western tradition. We Easterners have our own traditions, such as the toll-houses. In case you think that is looney business, the fact remains that tollhouses are mentioned many times in the pre-schism fathers and in our liturgy. You will never see purgatory and indulgences mentioned in our liturgy! And the liturgy is what counts, not St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Anselm, and St. Catherine of Sienna! (they were great though!)

You need to strip yourself of the idea that two churches can't have their own theological expressions while accepting the same dogmas. For instance, everyone accepts the dogma that after death is a purification. Byzantines, whether Orthodox or Catholic, see it as tollhouses, clearing of the nous, etc. Latins see it as purgatory, freeing the debt, etc. Let them both be free to express!

In Christ,

anastasios

AS to Toll Houses, not all Eastern Christians except them. The Greeks, for instance, have (So far as Ive divined from their literature) Only a concept of an intermediary state betwen heaven and hell. THey at times even reffer to it as the two hells (One of which is temporal and the other eternal).

I cannot except what I percieve as a belief that contradicts the teachings of the Catholic Church universal at the council of Florence. The Union of Brest itself states on Purgatory something to the effect of "WE will concede this teaching to the Holy See". Toll Houses are contradictory to Purgatory and almost neo-gnostic in their conception of the after life. This is obviously from the fact that Orthodoxy, being cut off from the Catholic Church for a thousand years and counting, has not been able to develope its dogmatics along the lines agreed by the universal Church.

Numerous Eastern Catholics seem to feel that they have to automatically except everything Orthodox but they should well remember that Orthodox concepts, unlike Catholic ones, are vague and undefined and must, for the sake of good order, must be brought up to date with those of the uniersal Church of Rome.

Toll Houses should not be believed in egardless of what the private rvelations of Eastern SAints profess about them. The most just and merciful dogma of Purgatory is to be believed by all faithfull Catholics and not de emphasized or replaced. And if I were Anastasios, I would work on getting some indulgances from spending time in Purgatory for preaching such stuff as sound Catholic doctrine.

For the Greter Glory of God!

Robert K.

Robert, might I suggest that you follow the example of Pope John Paul II? He clearly teaches that there is little that separates the Catholic and Orthodox Churches and notes that it is not a matter of one Church being separated from the other but rather a matter of the two Churches being separated from one another.


Sorry, Robert but this doesn't make sense. We Eastern Catholics retain our Eastern approach to doctrine because it is correct and true. To even consider that theology needs updating is not to understand. You need to study Orientale Lumen and consider the reasons for the Holy Fathers' call to the Latin Church to study and learn from the East.


Toll Houses have never been an official part of Orthodox theology. They are a kind of imagery used in attempt to explain something we really cannot explain. The only dogmatic point to the Catholic theology of purgatory is that there is a process (or journey) which we may undergo upon death.

You are making the mistake of equating the Latin approach to doctrine with being the only valid Catholic approach.

Admin

Think you guys are still caught up in the baggage of explaning purgatory.
The Church believes in Purgation and that we can
help the dead by our prayers. The East professes the same teaching as the West in its understanding of Theosis or Deification.
Stephanos I
PS Now what is the problem?

[ 04-29-2002: Message edited by: Stephanos I ]

Gentlemen!
All this fuss about words when we really mean the same thing.
1. Mary was pure, all holy, immaculate.
2. At the end of her life she was taken to heaven.
Stephanos I
(Deposed Patriarch LOL)

Thanks Alex,

That makes sense. If you don't believe in the bodily assumption of the Most-Holy Theotokos, then you're not Orthodox. It may not be defined in some dogmatic encyclical, but it is explicit in the prayers of the church.

Lex orandi, lex credendi,
Marshall

PS: what's a toll-house? Purgative check-points?

WEll, I understand that the east has its own theological emphasis on things like Purgatory but still, the concept of toll houses, att least in my understanding from the writtings of Fr. Seraphim Rose, sounds awfully strange and vague as compaired to the official Catholic teaching of Purgation as defined by the council of Florence.
I suppose that one could in theory substitute Toll Houses for Purgatory but still, according to the Orthodox, your only in them for forty days while one could be in Purgatory for around a million years if they had enough sins on their soul. Also, as I understand it, when one goes through the toll houses, there is no garuntee that they will reach Heaven while a soul in Purgatory knows that they wil eventually be let out and go straight to the pearly gates.

As for the Holy Fathers enciclycal, Ive read it and understand what hes trying to say. However, while I usually dont like to dispute offical Catholic teaching, I must admit that Im a little leary of ecumenism as it seems to be propagated in many quarters of the Church today. For the life of me, I dont know what kind of unity could result with the Orthodox through the present critiria that the POpe seems to lay out. It sounds as if all hes saying is lets have some kind of vague "your okay, Im okay" intercommunion and leave it at that. Real unity between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches will never be fulfilled unless the Orthodox officially return to the bosom of the Catholic Church. IMHO, if the type of vague union that the Pope talks about took place, it would just end up resulting in another schism eventually and most certainly it would seem to vindicate those who have, by their own choice, been out of communion with the Church for all this time. The only real and lasting union between our us would be when the Orthodox agree to recognize the Pope of Rome as the genuine successor of St. Peter and actually rejoin the visible communion of the Catholic Church.

But that probably would never happen anyway (Short of a genuine miracle) because the Orthodox do not want to give up anything or admit to their mistakes. We have apologized for our wrongdoings with them in the past but the refuse to stop bashing us (Like what is presently being done in Romania and Russia). In fact, most Orthodox dont even like the Catholic Church and consider us heretics. What possible hope for reunion do we hold with them when the not only treat as they do but despise and fear us for who we are?

I will, as a faithful Catholic, continue to tough the linne of ecumenism for the Church but I am still extremely baffled and complexed by it. I have read and studied much over the subject of ecumenical dialogue that the Church has taken up since Vatican 2 but alot of it sounds dangerously close to me in the concessions that we are willing to make for the price of outward unity.

Robert K.

Confused Catholic but hoping for answers.

Dear Marshall,

I am going to speak to you from a crouched position, as I may get hit by one of the dogmatic missiles being hurled around here!

It was St Macarius of Alexandria who had visions concerning what happens to a soul after death and this informs the prayer life of the Eastern Church for the soul of the reposed to this day.

The requiem Divine Liturgy is offered for the soul of a reposed Christian on the third day after his or her death as St Macarius saw that a soul was shown the joys of heaven for three days.

After this, the Liturgy is offered on the ninth day after death since in this time period (in our terms) the soul is shown the agonies of hell.

Then, the Divine Liturgy is offered for the soul on the 40th day following a wandering of the soul to the places it was familiar with, begging for prayers etc. and reflecting in general.

On this day, the soul is assigned a place by God.

The toll-houses are spiritual embodiments of virtues, some say up to twenty, that the soul confronts after death, being in the company of our Guardian Angel Protector.

At these toll-houses, the evil spirits of the air try to accuse the soul of having failed to show forth the particular virtue the toll-house represents e.g. purity, fortitude, faith etc.

The Guardian Angel helps us in our defence and we go on to the next virtue (assuming our defence is successful ).

It is a struggle, all told, a kind of judgement that we go through. Perhaps it can be likened to Purgatory, who knows?

I only know that I'm going to be on the very best of terms with my Guardian Angel . . .

And the Mother of God herself is also the ultimate help to us in confronting the toll-houses.

According to tradition, She asked her Son, before her own repose, not to go through the toll-house experience.

This is why, on the icon of the Dormition, Her Son stands beside her bier, holding the soul of His Mother in His Hands, preventing the evil spirits from even approaching Her.

Alex

Dear Robert K.,

You are not confused, but a true Ukrainian Catholic!

Your views are generally what most Ukrainian Catholics would believe in our Eparchy in any event.

And you are entirely entitled to believe as you do, or so my parish priest would say!

God bless you and hasten your entry into our Church!

Alex

Thanks Alex.

I wish to God that I could transfer to the Ukrainian Church since it seems that I am in complete harmony with her spirituality.

Is it possible to tranfer ones rite to another without attending a parish of theirs?

Unfortunatly I dont live near a Ukrainian Catholic Church but if I could just transfer through the mail or something then that would be the second greatest miracle of my life (After I survived that car crash oover a year ago)!

If only it were possible but alas it probably is not?

Robert K.
(Ukrainian at heart)!

Dear Robert K.,

I think you should consult with the Basilian you have been in contact with and let him know your position.

You could definitely be Ukrainian Catholic, but they would counsel you to attend a Latin parish if an Eastern one wasn't available.

How about moving?

Alex

Robert,

You wrote, "one could be in purgatory for like a million years."

Now I KNOW you don't have a clue about what purgatory is, becuase there is no time in purgatory!!!

My only point was: purgatory is western imagery, and toll houses are Eastern imagery.

Robert, would you care to show me where purgatory is mentioned in Eastern liturgics? i could easily show you where tollhouses are mentioned in our liturgies--in numerous places!

Oh, and about the Greeks--Metropolitan Hierotheos of Nafpaktos teaches the tollhouses in "Life after Death." www.pelagia.org [pelagia.org] for excerpts.

Robert: 1 question: have you read "ut unum sint" and "orientale lumen"?

In Christ,

anastasios

PS My opinion Robert, is that within 4 years you will be a member of the SSPX Transapline Redemptorists. I'm not joking. Please get a good, eastern spiritual director.

Dear Anastasius the Academician,

Actually, once Robert gets into the care of a Basilian spiritual director, the Transalpine Redemptorists will look like ROCOR!

Seriously, Anastasius, you stay with St Vlad's and leave us Ukie Cath'lics alone, O.K.?

For us, "Orthodox" means parishes who have the Stations of the Cross and the Rosary before the Liturgy!

And remember that we commemorate the Pope a total of FOUR times during our liturgy!

The Transalpine Redemptorists are wimps by comparison and they can learn a thing or two from us.

And since you are going into St Vlad's, technically, Robert and I shouldn't even be talking to you .

Have a great day!

Alex