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Dear Cantor Joe,

Christ is Risen!

It seems to me that the event in question is not one of the Archeparchy but rather the Metropolia (but it could be a private event of the OSBMs too). I was there for Otspust from the time of Met. Dolinay up to the last one before the current metropolitan. So that was under three "administrations" if you will. The indulgence was granted by all and I understand that is continues to be and is published in the schedule. So it seems this is not a matter of personal opinion. If "the answer is obvious" even given the audience, well what does that say about those addressing the audience? I don't get it.

As for the date of the Feast of the Conception of St. Ann. I think the following needs to be considered. The seminary press wall calendar still lists it as December 8th, Petras' typikon has options for the 8th and 9th. I do not know of any Ruthenian BC parish that takes that feast on the 9th. Do you?

You make an appeal to the liturgical texts. If you examine the Uniontown Festal Menaion texts for Decmeber 8th (titled Conception of St. Anne) you will notice there are litija verses. I cannot find any litija verses in Orthodox texts. Further in the litija verses the phrases "conceived without sin," "conceived...immaculate" and "most pure conception" occur in each of the verses. I cannot find parallel language anywhere else in the texts of the feast. Do you know what my conclusion is?

Perhaps you will say that these texts are not official. Then what are the official texts? Why does the calendar from the seminary press have the Feast listed on the 8th if it is moved as you say? Theologians make a bit out of the fact that when we celebrate the conception and later the birth it is an inexact 9 months except for Our Lord. Well, not so in this case.

Tony

Fr. Ed said: "You ask if "purgatory" is a noun or a verb asserting that if it is a noun it must be a "place" (in philosophy this is known as the fallacy of "false dilemma"). Actually, it could also be a "state of being" which, in fact, is what the Latin Church has always defined it as."

The noun 'purgatorium' did not exist until around the twelfth century when the spacialization of thought made much ado about its notion.

Fr. Ed said: "This "state of being" is the remittance of sin which, in a sentient being, must also be accompanied with a sense of what should have been. It is a purgation of our faults and failings and, as such, is represented in the hymns you cite."

How far does this purgation go, you think? from verb, to noun, and then to an adjective?

I find the words below very fascinating:

"You have many mansions, O Savior, which is allotted to all according to their merits and the measure of their virtues ..."

Many mansions allotted according to merits and virtues? This seems to indicate that Heaven is not one big open communion with God, but rather a communion of degree. What is the purpose of purging faults and failings if a degree-based heaven is so structured?

We pray for immediate 'rest' and 'forgiveness' of sins. But are we divorcing this aspect from the other aspect found in the same odes, namely the death of Jesus on the Cross for the 'forgiveness' of sins? These themes all go together, they cannot be isolated; their structure and order in our hymns reflect a commonality. Our understanding of our death is intimately related and subjected to Christ's death and resurrection.

In lieu of the 'many mansions' imagery is the 'partaking of divine light' theme. Communion (with God, the Saints, Abraham, the Martyrs, etc) is accented, not the scouring purgations of ontological being.

But why ontology?

The "ontologicalization" of all things theological is a trend waiting for a time and place to happen. Christology changed from 'economia' to 'theologia/ontology' in the early centuries of the Church; Mariology opted for a theology of being in her Immaculate Conception and Bodily Assumption; now we ontologize our afterlife partaking of God's divine nature. Have we divorced our understanding of the afterlife from one of 'economia,' especially tied intimately to the triumph of Christ in Hades and His resurrection? (cf. Gospel of Nicodemus and the Resurrection Festive Icon)

It seems that some are too ready to see in our various liturgical hymns the dogma of Purgatory just as much as some are so apt to declare they discovered the dogma of the Immaculate Conception in our feast of St. Anne. Can we draw an analogy with the search for WMDs in Iraq? "Here its not!"

What do you think the authors of our funeral hymns were really trying to say? What was the point they were trying to make? Was is really about ontology? There is room for our understanding of the immediate afterlife as much as there is room for orthodox subordinationism in Christology.

Cantor Joe Thur

Why all the talk. You are making purgatory way too complicated.

It's in the OT. It's in the NT. It's in the writings of the Fathers.

God said it. I believe it. That's all there is to it.

Paul

Dear Paul,

When it comes to purgatory, what in heaven's name are you talking about?

Where is it mentioned in the Bible?

Alex

Dear Tony,

Yes, it is true that there are "Byzantine RC" texts for the Immaculate Conception and I find these in my OSBM horologion . . .

And it is true that there are "Odpusts."

I think Cantor Joe's earlier post applies here as well.

There is Latinization, but it takes time to overcome it.

(Just as it takes time for the Ukie Orthodox to overcome Russification, to be fair now.)

The Orthodox texts for the Feast of the Conception of St Anne are more beautiful, to be sure - I don't know why a number of our churches and pastors don't wish to use them.

And it's not as if there haven't been Orthodox saints and teachers who didn't personally believe in the Immaculate Conception from the Western theological vantage point: Peter Mohyla, Dmitri of Rostov - Gregory Palamas seems to hint at this himself in his sermon on the Dormition of the Mother of God. John Meyendorff mentions this as well in his "Ways of Byzantine Theology."

And in Poselianin's monumental, pre-revolution work, "Bogomater," he lists numerous "Odpusts" celebrated by many Orthodox parishes in Volyn and other areas of Eastern Europe.

Perhaps this is a carry-over from a former Uniate life . . .

But, if so, why does Orthodoxy allow them to continue with them, even to this day?

Alex

Dear Tony,

Did you read my post where I mentioned a lot of "ironing out" that needs to be done? What are you trying to get at?

Can you imagine what it was like twenty or thirty years ago? Can you not appreciate the progress being made so far? To date, I have never heard any sermon on indulgences in church.

As for 'official texts', the answer is NO. Most of our liturgical texts that we cantors use are not official, but private publications from "approved sources" and by "liturgical commissions." No sense of authorship, editorship or ownership, but the name of the monastic institution. I can't think of ONE liturgical publication that I use in cantoring that IS official except for the Typicon we follow faithfully. Period. So I guess this DOES say something about our 100+ year history in this country. Hopefully, things will change.

In all translations and textual reconstructions, critical studies do have to be made. At one time we never had anything on St. Gregory Palamas or Photius. Now we do. We used to celebrate other feast days NOT in any festal menaion (Catholic or Orthodox). Now we don't.

This is akin to biblical studies, no? All the pieces and parts must be studied and re-studied. Even non-catholic/orthodox church traditions are gradually adopting the LXX and "Apocrypha." Can you imagine editions of the KJV including the Apocrypha? These books haven't been included since the first several editions of the KJV!!! These things take time once de-railment is fixed.

Would you like to cooperate in making this happen?

How's Crestwood these days?

Joe

Paul,

Please explain and document what you posted. Thank you.

Joe

YOU GO, CANTOR JOE!!

Alex

Dear Alex, Joe,

No word "purgatory" in the Bible. The concept is in the Bible.

OT: "It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins" (II Mach., xii, 43-46).

NT: St. Paul in I Cor., iii, 11-1,5: "For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay stubble: Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire."

Fathers/Tradition: In a previous post in this thread I cited St. Gregory of Nyssa. There is more from Tradition in the

Catholic Encyclopedia

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm

Paul

Dear Paul,

Actually, the biblical texts can only be related to purgatory by way of a stretch . . .

Gregory of Nyssa took that concept from pagan Greek philosophy for which he was censured by the Church.

Purgatory is a juridical concept that impresses the Latin mind - but it is foreign to the East.

But there are similarities and there is no reason why there can't be more than one tradition on eschatology.

Alex

Dear Alex,

O ye of little faith.

The Biblical passages are standard RCC apologetics. They helped win me back to the Catholic Church from biblical fundamentalism.

As for St. Gregory of Nyssa, I got the quotation from Dr. Alan Schreck of the University of Steubenville Ohio. I won't challenge your challenge. You're the man on the East.

It's getting hot in here.

Paul

Dear Brothers and Sister

First off, Eastern Catholics have been directed by Rome to recover their lost Tradition. I wish people would stop pretending like they don't know this by insisting we have to believe the Latin Tradition. If certain Eastern Catholics (including Bishops) are inclined to believe the Latin Tradition, that's fine. They are free in their conscience to do so. But as JThur, Orthodox Catholic and many others have indicated, there is an authentic Eastern Tradition(s) that we are actually called to recover. This process of recovery and restoration is already well under way, whether some may be aware of this or not.

Some Eastern Catholics (including Bishops and Priests) will fight this nail and tooth to the end, being convinced the Latin way is the only true way. Like all great endeavors, this process will take time and patience and will be met with some resistance.

Now, I believe the quesiton was "do Byzantine Catholics believe in Purgatory." Somebody said, "just answer the question." Well then, the answer is, "NO." They believe in what many of them refer to as "Final Theosis." Between these two concepts of purification, there are many similarities as well as some differences as you all have been discussing very well.

I, like others on this thread, once left Biblical Fundamentalism, being pursuaded by Roman Catholic Apologetists. But I came to a point in my life that I realized that I could not look to these same Latin Apologists for the authentic Tradition of the Eastern Churches. It is only by looking at these Traditions (and the teachers of these Traditions) with OPENESS can one begin to learn the authentic Tradition of an Eastern Church.

The more I do this, the more I realize that, as Alex has indicated, there is a multitude of views regarding what happens to us after death coming from the authentic Traditions of the ancient Churches.

examples:

1. The Latins believe in Purgatory or (as the new Roman Catechism refers to it) "The Final Purification." (CCC #1030-1032)

2. Latins also have their own Tradition of the Particular Judgment. It teaches, "Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven -through a purifciation or immediately, or -immediate and ever-lasting damnation." (CCC 1022).

3. Many Eastern Roman Churches (whom the French gave the name: "Byzantines") believe in Toll Booths and a very explicit process of Tests in the first forty days after death.

4. This same Eastern Roman Tradition teaches that in the Particular Judgment, we only receive a foretaste of our eternal reward or punishment. It is only in the Final Judgment, upon Christ's return, that we recieve the full reward for our life on earth.

5. Then you have the Oriental Orthodox view which is at the opposite end of the spectrum. Many in the Armenian Church Tradition, teach that we "sleep" until the Final Judgment. We read in the official Memorial Service for the Reposed,

"According to the teachings of the Armenian Church, those who have died enter into a period of rest while awaiting our Lord's glorious second coming at the end of time. But while separated from the Christian community, the souls that are at rest continue to be counted among the faithful, who "rest in the shadow of the Church." We therefore pray for them, as we pray for all of our earthly cares. Essentially, our prayer for the dead is that they rest in peace, that the Lord forgive them all of their sins and find them worthy of eternal life in the Father's kingdom when Christ comes again."

Based on this variety of views coming from the ancient Apostolic, Catholic and Orthodox Churches I have come to a conclusion. It is that there are many different ways of understanding this subject -all with validity. I suggest what we all hold in common is what should be viewed as the Dogma of the universal Church. These are, what Teen of the Incarnate Logos mentioned. Reformulated they are:

1) There is a purification after death, in which the faithful are cleansed, forgiven and healed.

2) Prayers are efficacious for those who sleep in Christ.

Trusting In Christ's Light,
Wm. DerGhazarian
Armenian Catholic Christian
www.geocities.com/derghazar [geocities.com]

Paul,

Look at the last two lines of Ghazar's post. This is all that's required. Other than that, the plethora of traditions held by the Church are all equally valid.

To All:

No tradition regarding "Purgatory" is better than the other, and I don't see anyone who claims this. Stop accusing and splitting hairs!

Logos Teen

Logos Teen,

Amen! There certainly is a plethora of views on the concept of purification after death held in the Church. From a Catholic perspective what is required belief is:

1)Such a purification exists.

2)The prayers of the living are of aid to those undergoing that purification.

It is not required belief in the Catholic Church to believe what we call "purgatory" is a place. It can be viewed as a process. Even modern Roman Catholic apologetics acknowledges this. See, for example the article by James Akin where he says:

http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/HOW2PURG.HTM

Even the "pain" or "discomfort" associated with this purification can be viewed in different ways--some including joy in that process.

The positive presentation posted by OrthoMan is a position that a Catholic can hold. In fact, it seems rather near to Cardinal Ratzinger's views noted above.

I came across this interesting article on this subject at:

http://cte.rockhurst.edu/stramarad/th1course/th1reading/readings/purg.html

I would probably re-word some of it if it were my presentation but there is much food for thought in it.

For Danj--St Alexis' icon still hangs in my icon corner. (I accept all saints who have been canonized by the Church--both Eastern and Western.)

Christ is Risen!

David Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

Alex wrote:

What I had in mind was the Scholastic understanding of Purgatory. Cardinal Ratzinger's views are, I think, more representative of the modern Roman approach to this subject. I think there definitely have been too many attempts to understand this subject in the past...just as, I think, those Orthodox who hold to the "toll house" views are trying too hard to understand this subject.

Now, I do not hold to the "toll house" view myself. I do like toll house cookies, however.

David Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com