www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Are Angels Persons?

I know that angels are messengers, agents, beings. But are they persons in the sense that you and I are persons or in the sense that the members of the Trinity are Persons? I am not looking for opinion as much as a real theological formulation.

Thanks

John

You and I are created in the image of The Trinity. That is what makes us persons. The angels are...not created in the image of The Trinity to my knowledge, therefore they are not persons.

Another thought. Are the salvific acts of Our Lord extended to redeem the angels?

Fr Deacon:

couldn't you have asked a much simpler question, eg, "how many angels dance on a pin?"

John, who heard a haircut may come in August(?)

Glory to Jesus Christ!

In response to the request for theology, not personal opinion:

The Catechism of the Catholic Church says, at #329 and #330,

"St. Augustine says, 'Angel' is the name of their office, not of their nature. If you seek the name of their nature, it is 'spirit;' if you seek the name of their office, it is 'angel.'..." This is footnoted to reference the "Ennarationes in Psalmos 103, 1, 15, as found in the Patrilogia Latina 37, 1348.

and then the Catechism says at #330:

"As purely spiritual creatures, angels have intelligence and will; they are PERSONAL and immortal creatures (emphasis added), surpassing in perfection all visible creatures, as the splendor of their glory bears witness." This is footnoted to reference the encyclical letter of Pope Pius XII, Humani Generis, the "Enchiridion Symbolorum," Luke 20:36, and Daniel 10:9-12.

I hope that answers your question satisfactorily, Deacon John.

JMT

Thank you Bob and Prof. J. Michael,

But is personal, the same as person? My dog is personal, but I would not consider him a person.

Does this have bearing on the theology of the body?

Christ, as image and likeness of the Father, was/is both body and spirit. The resurrection promised to us is the resurrection of the body, not just of the spirit.

As persons, we are united as body and spirit. To separate the one from the other leaves destroys this fundamental unity, this fundamental definition of personhood.

John

John (bisantino)

If angels are persons, can they get haircuts?

John

Professor Michael Thompson,

Now, what is the theology of angels in the Byzantine theological tradition?

https://www.byzcath.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=5&t=000038

[ 07-27-2002: Message edited by: J Thur ]

Joseph:

Instead of being negative for the sake of being negative, why not show where what has been posted is NOT the Byzantine tradition?

JMT

Very interesting thread, Father Deacon.

From the Orthodox Catechism of Peter Moghila:
"The Angels are spirits, whom God, out of nothing, hath produced into being, that they might serve him and sing praise unto him; and in this world might assist men and lead them into his kingdom"

This having been said, perhaps it is worthwhile to take into account the following from St. Irenaus of Lyon:

"Spirits without bodies will never be spiritual men and women. It is our entire being, that is to say, the soul and flesh combined, that by the receiving the Spirit of God constitutes the spiritual man"

Guess I'd have to ask:

What makes humans persons?

Do angels have that/those attribute(s)?

To me they are persons though not people. Spirits don't have hair to cut, but they do seem to be individuals.

My untheological two shekels...


Sharon

Hi:

My definition of "Person" is a being gifted with Intelligence (the ability to know) and Will (the ability to want).

Therefore, humans are persons, each one of the Holy Trinity are Persons, angels are persons.

Dogs are not persons.

Shalom,
Memo.

Dear Professor Thompson,

With respect to your post to Joseph - Touche!

I am someone who has always valued the guidance of my professors and I am happy to see that you have taken Joseph under your wing as well!

Please accept my best wishes to you and prayers in your vocation to form our future priests and bishops.

Alex

I am reviving this thread because I still am not satisfied that we have answered the question.

Consider the following entry from Miriam-Webster:

Main Entry: per�son
Pronunciation: 'p&r-s&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French persone, from Latin persona actor's mask, character in a play, person, probably from Etruscan phersu mask, from Greek prosOpa, plural of prosOpon face, mask -- more at PROSOPOPOEIA
Date: 13th century
1 : HUMAN, INDIVIDUAL -- sometimes used in combination especially by those who prefer to avoid man in compounds applicable to both sexes <chairperson> <spokesperson>
2 : a character or part in or as if in a play : GUISE
3 a : one of the three modes of being in the Trinitarian Godhead as understood by Christians b : the unitary personality of Christ that unites the divine and human natures
4 a archaic : bodily appearance b : the body of a human being; also : the body and clothing <unlawful search of the person>
5 : the personality of a human being : SELF
6 : one (as a human being, a partnership, or a corporation) that is recognized by law as the subject of rights and duties
7 : reference of a segment of discourse to the speaker, to one spoken to, or to one spoken of as indicated by means of certain pronouns or in many languages by verb inflection
- per�son�hood /-"hud/ noun
- in person : in one's bodily presence

I guess one may argue that angels fulfill definitions 5,6, and/or 7 but these are hardly satisfying theological constructs!

To the above I add the following theological definition as provided by Tertullian who considers:
Person as a responsible agent.

Now, instead of considering just angels, I also would like to consider devils or demons, fallen angels. Are they persons? Are they RESPONSIBLE agents? Or are they merely coercive agents. Can the devil act on his own or only through PERSONS.

If the devil can act on his own then I have the following questions:

Did the fall of man occur with Adam and Eve's disobedience or with Lucifer's?

Is man truly free? (In essence, can the devil act through him or only with him?)

Alternatively, are angels responsible agents who act on their own behalf? Or do they act on behalf of God who is the responsible agent?

If angels and devils are responsible agents/persons, then are they, in essence, demi-gods?

If angels and devils are responsible agents and therefore persons, why the hell (sorry I couldn't resist ) do they need us?

A responsible agent?

John

Happy Thanksgiving! I heard once that the Eastern Churches teach that the body and spirit make up the soul of man. Is this true?

Adam