www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology pews, yet again

Somebody take Ilya up on his generous offer!!!

Yes, remove the pews from the Eastern Catholic parishes. Then we can begin to remove them from Western Catholic parishes too (hey, you could kneel on the floor)! Pews just don't belong in Christian temples, I agree.

Don't a large majority of Greek Orthodox parishes [in the U.S.] have pews? Alice??

Logos Teen

I'm forwarding this to our priest!

Hi Logos Teen,

You called?

I didn't want to get into this one, as I might be branded a liberal heretic!

Yes, the Greek Orthodox churches IN THE U.S. all have pews or, as in the case of my church, fancy chairs....

As to whether I would like them removed, let's just say that I hated the way the people crowded around my husband and me when we got married in Greece, because of the lack of pews, I hate the way everyone pushes and shoves in Greece on crowded feast days because of the lack of pews, and that in my Westernized sensibility, I like the order and decorum that pews enable us here in the U.S. Greek Orthodox churches to have when lining up for the Holy Mysteries and to receive blessed antidoron at the end of the service. Although I am (relatively) young and healthy by the grace of God, I DO get very tired at times, and especially by the time of our priest's sermon, I am VERY glad to be able to sit....

Now on the other hand, during shorter more profound services like akathists and supplications, it would be nice to be able to have room to do a prostration. This is not common, but because I have a very young and traditional priest, who does prostrations himself during these services, we either push the chairs away if we are in the chapel, or if in the church, the relatively few who attend these services, just move on out to the aisle and prostrate or kneel there...which is kind of nice, because you are directly infront of the awe of the altar.

Also, as we in the U.S. kneel during the consecration, in those churches that have kneelers, it does make kneeling more comfortable. As I said before, my church in particular, just has (specially carved, wooden, traditional looking) 'chairs' lined up in pew order. We have no kneelers. The cold hard floor and the lack of space, in my church's particular situation, is daunting (and penitential in feel ) during kneeling times.

This is my experience and only my opinion. Culturally, the Greek church does few bows, metanoies, and prostrations, (even in Greece), so the pews do not seem to pose as much of a challenge for our cultural practice as it may for the Slavic churches.

In much love in Christ our Lord,
Alice

Dear Friends:

In my ancestral Parish in Portugal the church didn't have pews until the sixties.

One of the locals made good, and offered to pay for pews to be installed in the church.

Up until that time women and children sat upon a wooden section of the floor, located at the front of the church.

I must say that only women, children, and poor peasants sat on the floor.

The richer families always had chairs placed along the walls.

All able-bodied men, on the other hand, would leave the church and go out for a smoke.

I have old photographs (pre-pews) where the church seemed absolutely packed with faithful.

It's just not the same.


defreitas

But the really strange thing to me is that they only kneel on Sundays when they have a Ukrainian Group there no matter the season .

And then it's so crowded that if you fainted you would remain upright - but they can manage to kneel

[Actually must find a Photo and post it]

Anhelyna

Suggestion to Gavshev:

Take some pictures of your best work, and post them on the internet. You might get some takers then, or even a nice little side business that helps the Church as well.

Can I get and "Amen!", brothers and sisters?

This is a call to all those fortunate enough to worship in pew-less temples. Did any of your churches toss out pews, or were they built properly in the first place? For those who were able to remove pews from their temples, please post your testimonials! Tell us how it was managed and what has happened since. I feel a significant number of us would like to see pews disappear from our temples. It would help to have some 'ammunition' for these campaigns.

I eagerly await your stories.

Ilya:

What does one do if one is disabled? I, for one, went through three years of therapy after a work-related accident 10 1/2 years ago. During therapy all my lifestyle motions were changed. I am not able to stand for a long period of time, nor sit for that matter. And kneeling is a major challenge since I have the tendency to have my right leg come out of the hip socket if I try to put one leg down at a time: have to balance on something taking all my weight onto my arms and upper body, fold my legs up, and lower myself onto a kneeler; rising is the opposite--rise up onto my arms, lift my whole body up and then lower my legs into position. Rising from a seat is another thing. I have either to pull myself up on the back of a pew in front of me in church or push off with both hands from the seat I am in. Sitting down is the opposite.

I'm not advocating something that is against your tradition, but what does someone like me do in your church?

In Christ,

BOB

It is interesting that there is such a consensus and agreement about pews in this place. I do not think a survey of the 'average' parish about the question would give this bold response.

Part of the problem, is that most of our people have never experienced the prayerfulness, freedom and joy of pewless spaces.

I have to agree with the Hieromonk, most of you seem to be vostochniki.

Theophan,

We have several disabled people that attend our parish in Brampton. There are benches along the side walls of the nave for people that need to sit as well as several stools that one could move to any place to sit. In Jordanville they have a lot of these little foldong stools which are really nice. Also, another good thing about no pews is people in wheelchairs are able to wheel around easily to venerate icons and go to communion with ease.

And as for the post about crowds pushing in church, wow, doesn't that sound, hmmm, like so many gospel readings (ie this mornings reading about Zacheas)? Somehow I don't think most byzantine parishes would have this problem too often these days. Where crowds was a problem in Russia and Ukraine, they installed resheti or decorative little gates that would keep people out of the processional paths.
Besides, if you think you have crowd issues, think about how the services must have been with tens of thousands of people crowding in, it must have been awsome.

Ilya

Dear Ilya, my friend in Christ,

"Judge not, lest you be judged".

This is a free country, (last time I looked), and I am allowed as free an opinion in favor of pews for the decorum they allow with crowds, as you are to be against them. I also believe that I am allowed the personal opinion of not liking pushing crowds, whether or not they existed and were the norm in Christ, our most Holy Lord's time.

Have a nice day, and God bless.

In Christ,
Alice

I didn't mean to sound condescending, I just think there is something not-too-oddly beautiful about a packed out church. Do you have children (babies) in your church and how do you deal with them when they get out of hand? (Just curious, not condescending.)

Dear Ilya,

I really don't know why you are asking about babies, and what relation they have to pews, but, fortunately (or not so fortunately, it depends on how one views teens and young adults! ) I am over that stage.

From what I remember when I had babies, and from what I see with others, a parent will simply walk out of the church sanctuary when the baby is acting up too much, and is too distractingly noisy, like when they start crying.

When the baby calms down, the parent comes back.

Again, why are you asking?

In Christ our Lord,
Alice

I know from my experience with my nephews and niece and from oserving many services in both pewed and unpewed churches, that children desparately need to be able to fall in love with God's House at their level. Sitting in pews or chairs makes them incredibly antsy, and unless they have a book or toy to amuse themselves with, crying is imminent, and so is walking to the back. It is much easier and better not only to let the children explore the church, and if they do get antsy the mother (or anyone in church for that matter) will pick up the child and focus them on particular icons on the walls and stands. This fluidity of movement is necessary.
but you are completely entitled to your own opinion, sorry to bother.
ilya

Doesn't our cannon law state that 50 years of doing something in one way, then it becomes a tradition. So, since it is a western thing so to speak, I suppose that would make it so.

I am like Theophan, I have many health problems that would keep me from standing, walking, and my knees don't bend. Yet, when I see the body of Christ enter into the isles to do prostrations, I just feel our growth of worship would greatly increase if the pews weren't there.

When we are standing up for the Gospel readings the whole church comes forward and gathers around as it is read. It is so awesome, to see the body of Christ venerating the Word of Christ. I love it! Yet,I understand Alice's struggle with crowds and people pushing,I tend to be somewhat clostrophobic. And, as in her experience of being in a different church with so many you don't know it would feel somewhat awkard. And yes you are allowed to have your own opinion Alice.

Our children of the parrish don't have any problem getting around during church even with the pews. You know by the end of the Divine Liturgy someone is going to hand them back to you wherever they are. If you don't like kids moving about the church, or people talking during the Liturgy(which I feel personally is disrepectful, yet I am guilty myslef) then I would like to suggest you sit in the front of the church. Even with my health I prefer to sit in the front then I am not distracted by others.

But, all in all, I think it would be wonderful, not to have the pews.

As for the men going outside smoking. Well, in the old countries, it is my understanding that if they were within 8 miles of church they were at church. And even with pews they go outside and smoke, that doesn't stop them, especially the older men. The problem is going out and chasing the kids inside, because they see their fathers and grandfathers out side.

I find distracting the clicking of the beads from the men, as much as I do the saying of the rosary during Liturgy(which we do not have at our church). So you have distractions no matter what or where you are.