www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology pews, yet again

I personally like a pew-less church also, but then I thought about these sayings:

St Philaret of Moscow said �It is better to sit and think of God, than to stand and think of your legs�.

It is said that once two brothers came to avva Isaiah and asked him: �avva, if I see my brother dozing in the church, what should I do, let him or wake him up to the prayer ?� The Saint replied �I say you truly, brothers, if I see my brother dozing, I put my knee under his head and rest him�.

And I reflected:

In order that the fatigue do no burden the prayer, there are moments when the believers may sit, these being �the Apostle� and the �Kathismata�, which in fact from Greek means �to sit�. When there is a service with vigil, they bless the �Lithia�, bread with wine, and then it is given to the believers for eating, so that they do not exhaust themselves. In a word, the services of the Orthodox are not so much inhuman.

I guess there has always been room for both? I spent the last 16 years in a parish without pews, but the people that stood throughout the services were always in quite 'poor humor' (actually they were rather nasty!)...now I'm in a large parish with pews and everyone is incredibly warm and welcoming. I'm sure that in neither case it is because there ARE or are NOT pews, but it does show that WITH pews people can and in fact ARE wonderful and loving Orthodox Christians...and withOUT pews, some people cannot seem to be helped to be loving no matter how 'correct' the furniture.

In His love for us all,
+Father Archimandrite Gregory

My oldest son could not stay awake in church until he was old enough to serve. Every Sunday he fell asleep. We finally decided that the Lord must be teaching him something that he needed to know.

Then our daughter to the dismay of her ECCD teachers would occassionaly fall asleep. She was prone to migranes in her high school years, and when they were at the worst inevitably she would sleep during Divine Liturgy, but when she woke up, they were gone. So I guess there was something Jesus wanted for her during Liturgy also.

Whatever it was they have a wonderful realtionship with our Lord. So I take it that there napping was good, and they are not the worse for ware.

I'm grateful that many of our pews have been removed. It is uncivil to force children into a wooden prison. I thank God for the energy they bring to our worship as they explore the icons.

Out with the pews except for a few for the handicapped and elderly.

Dan Lauffer

I echoe Alice's sentiments. There something to be said about seeing a whole familly sitting together during Devine Liturgy; you know; from the grandparents all the way down to little toddlers, who's 'home' for the holidays, who is married, and who has children, etc... That would not work out as well in a large crowd of people.

Also I think it gives everyone a chance of seeing the priest and the services. What happens if Michael Jordan types stand up front ? How will the little old grandmas see what is going on ?

Hritzko,

If you can't see, and there are no pews, you can just walk around. Heck, you could follow the procession if you so desire.

Freedom!

I am against pews in church, with the proviso that there be such around the perimeter of the walls for the elderly or infirm.

Analoi and candlestands, and an amvon are much more suited to a traditional church.

One consideration remains, however, and that is the crowding. Alice mentions this feelingly, and in many small churches it is, by the Grace of God, like being in a sardine can. And on Feast days to do Prostrations when one barely has room to stand is a daunting task indeed! But when all our parishes build NEW buildings, with large churches, and allow "prostration room" we shall be set!

The problem of kneeling on dimpled floors is of course solved by thick oriental carpets. Quite nicely, in fact. :rolleyes:

No pews for me!

Ya know, I did the (very simple) artwork years ago, but never had the $$$ to do T shirts or badges.

The picture is of a sad-faced figure in prison garb, ball-and-chain about the ankle, seated dejectedly in a pew, said picture within the universal red slashed circle. The caption reads "Friends don't make friends pray in pews."

I'm not sure how often this issue comes up at the seminary , but at the seminary chapel in Pittsburgh, the pews are so tightly packed that it's rather difficult to find the space to nurse a baby.

Cheers,

Sharon

Hmmm, families sitting together. What about the whole church family? I think its kinof cool to see the fathers on the right and the mothers on the left and the children waddling back and forth across the church, or playing on the central rug or by the icons. You really do get the feeling of being a big family, in fact it probably pushes parishoners to get to get along better. But men on one side women on the other probably won't get such good feedback from you folks- it's hard to understand if you've never had it. But from a singing standpoint, it makes the service WAY more interesting-anitiphonal chanting and stuff- suddenly the services take on a whole other feel.

anyway,

ilya

Dear Ilya,

You know when I was younger we still had remnants of the seperation of the sexes in our UGCC church (men on right and women on the left). My father sat with us children (x 4) in the pews and my mother was in the choir loft. My grandparents never sat with us, they were on opposite sides of the church. They all got along fine, it's just the way things were with people from the old country. Was it better ? not that I could remember, but then again, I was much younger.

Are you a member of the beautiful Carpathian style UGCC church in Brampton (Ontario) ?

I also find pews totally unhelpful - with the exception of benches for the elderly and infirm.

They totally get in the way of my prayer (even making Metanias - not to mention poklons).

They make me feel like a spectator or observer. My worship becomes restricted and impoverished.

I would like to say they also get in the way of families being together. Pews make everyone sit in 1 row and reduces your contact to the 2 people beside you! One cannot be surrounded by one's family. It also makes child care VERY very difficult. And it reduces the number of potential child care-givers. And children like to escape under the pews - then...yowzaa

If at all possible pray in a pewless church - it really makes a huge difference. You'll NEVER willingly prefer pews again!

Christ is Baptised!

Herb

Yesterday, I was looking at the virtual tour on the website of the Church of the Nativity (Old Rite ROCOR) in Eire, PA. http://www.churchofthenativity.net

What I found interesting is that, while they do not have pews and have ample free space in the center of the temple, they have numerous benches lined up in rows along the north and south walls. They are not big and bulky or close together like pews, but from the looks of it there is plenty of space to sit if need be.

They say on the website:

Ilya, you've said in other posts that you've been to Eire. Perhaps you could comment on your experience of the Old Rite practice?

I also looked at pictures of some other Old Believer churches (of the priestless variety) and they too seem to have benches in rows:

http://www.artium.lt/sentik/var5/foto/tn22.jpg

http://www.artium.lt/sentik/var5/foto/tn27.jpg

Maybe something like this would be a good middle ground for many churches. I mean, if it's Old Rite, you can't go wrong.

Dave

Humm,
Let me say that I am for anything that would make people flock to our churches, Catholic, Non Catholic, alike. Some know of my own evangelization efforts.
Having said that, I would be interested in the response of a majority of priests as to this topic of a "pewless" church. In architecture, the great premise is "form follows function."

Priests in parishes by and large, also work to that axiom, with only one difference, namely, they, or at least the few that I know personally, ask this question: "Is this move whether forward or backward; for the better or not?"

As a result, one needs to see the complete pastoral picture, and the repercussions our decisions may have. In short, will (regarding this subject) change for the sake of change increase the people's faith and experience at all of the Divine Services or will this return to a supposed "necessary tradition" of our church, simply cause dissention?" After 25 years, (this year) believe me, I know!

A unique part of our church is in it's familiarity. I know people who enjoy sitting in their favorite spot in church. I'm sure we all have a preffered spot we like to sit. We are creatures of habit, and most of them are all not that bad.

In many of our churches 75% of the people are over 75, (I may be exaggerating of course), and they are fortunate enough to even come to church at all. Forcing them and everyone else to stand for 90 minutes, or to have people vie for a few seats against the wall seems counter productive.

Those having to sit against the walls would be unable to see what's going on as a result of everyone standing around them. That doesn't seem fair, or charitable either. And how does the priest get everyones complete and undivided attention when we give our awe inspiring homilies?

Would you like to see people milling about....
"going out for smokes", lighting candles, wandering about, etc. if you were giving an important speech? I don't think so. Your first reaction would be to say "shut up, pay attention, and sit down!"

Let the posters try it. Stand in one 3 foot by 3 foot space for 90 minutes and see how you feel. Or how about the next time you go to your church with pews, stand in the back of the church for the whole service. Make a few friends of yours do the same then report back. Standing for 90 minutes, is, well, standing for 90 minutes...or even longer depending on the service. You get tired, fidgetty, and become less attentive.

When your young, standing is no problem. Standing in a respectful posture when your young is another thing.

The first response of a newcommer to a pewless church could very well be: "isn't that interesting!" But the novelty after a while, I'm afraid, would wear off.
Seats, pews, theater seating even, it's all good, and also in most cases not only necessary for orderliness (a dirty word to some in our churches), but what people have become acustomed to. Accept this as progress and move on.
It's like fasting before Holy Communion for only 1 hour now, instead of having to fast the whole night before.

As an aside, if one thinks that people will "come closer to the front of the church" without pews (people leaving the first 5 rows empty for the late commers is my pet peeve) they won't.
Look at the pic. of the Brampton Ontario church without pews. It looks like, from the perspective of the pic., that people were standing 10 yards from the sanctuary...
Many pics. of churches that have been shown without pews are now either museums, or they have small chapels with pews in them for daily services, and they bring seats in when they need them.
It's one thing to think that throwing out pews will have people flocking back to our churches. We would certainly need that influx to offset the people who would be fleeing from them because we're insisting on returning to an outdated and impractical tradition as we "re-discover ourselves as a church" or try once again to remove any similarity to the Roman Catholics.....even though Greek and Russian Orthodox churches "with" pews see no problem with having them.

Throwing out pews? Interesting banter for this forum, but again, in reality, the idea is a bit impractical. We're all used to pews/seats, even in the seminary chapel, which I spent many a long time at services at 6AM. Without pews, we may have had some cracked heads from seminarians hitting that terrazzo floor after dozing off!

Maybe those who advocate turning pews into pulpits, or other various and sundry products, could perhaps use their energies and zeal on, well, maybe, filling those terrible and inhibiting pews to their full capacity, instead of advocating their elimination.

Fr. Michael J Sopoliga

The Pews! The Pews! In wisdom let us attend.
Stephanos I

Father, father,

Have some courage! I know from personal experience that when a church goes back to its Eastern roots, it thrives!

Why, do you think, that 75% of the parishioners in many of the churches are over 75? Is this an acceptable situation? Should we just wait until 75% of our parishioners are dead?

Rather, let's take a chance, and do things the right way, come what may. What have we got to lose? Ruthenians are dying out in this country. We might as well die out as Ruthenians, not as comfortable, safe, empewed latins.

Here, I'll make you a deal. Come up to Annunciation (in Homer Glen, IL) and see how we do it. We still have chairs (too many, for my taste), but we've opened up the place quite a bit, and the liturgies have improved greatly. If what we do doesn't knock your socks off, I'll buy you lunch. A good lunch, too, not just fast food.

Father, Bless!

Of course it depends on the character of the parish, but frankly, I have not seen this kind of lack of attentiveness in pewless Orthodox parishes and i have attended many of them in Washington, Oregon, and California.
Yes, people have more freedom to light candles, make matanias etc and that is ALL to the better but in none did i see people coming in and out because the pews were not there to constrict them. In other words, these have all been attentive Orthodox congregations aided in their worship by not being obstructed by pews (and of course, with good benches along the sides for those who cannot stand or who must sit for a time and then stand again)