www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology pews, yet again

Again, my best friends as a child were we priests. They tought me not only to appreciate the finer parts of liturgical worship it its most wonderful forms, but they also (unknowingly and unfortunately) tought me how to be extremely critical and cynical-but most importantly, to always push the envelope.

I hate when people treat my father badly, though he never sticks up for himself.

I don't need a slap on the wrist alice, thanks, see my post on the priest's blessing.

writing with a smile,

ilya

I guess I deserved that Alice! That's the curse of being on Global TV. Everyone knows how old you look. Just remember, TV puts 10 pounds on you and at least that many years!

Ilya,

your father is an inspiration and I'm sure I'm not alone in saying that

Tossing the ball back onto the proper issue of "worship" rather than "tradition"...

With respect to those (including clergy), who have spoken about people standing uncomfortably, I would like to point out that in most pewless parishes today, several lovely, thick layers of carpeting are down, making the standing much more comfortable, as well as the sitting at various points in the proceedings. Again, benches of pews along walls for those who cannot comfortably sit. I have comfortably stood for over five hours in a pewless church...SO....comfort issues aside...

The focus is on WORSHIP. The freedom to make prostrations during the appropriate portions of Services (most frequently during the Great Fast) without asking five people to move so you can step into an aisle, or constantly reseating yourself during the service to assure you are there in the first place...and that works if you are one person. For an entire family to shuffle off a pew, find an aisle spot, do prostrations, and shuffle back...is distracting. So: either one of two things happens...self-consciousness leads to failure to worship the Lord in fullness, or, disruption and chaos as people try to find an "end spot", losing the focus on their worship in their attempt to focus on a "parking space"...then, the scramble back... Insanity.
It isn't "TRADITION"...it IS about "WORSHIP".

And as more young people view the insanity that is around them in the world, they will come to crave the refuge of a life lived more fully in the Lord...and return to the disciple of traditional worship...not just Sunday Divine Liturgy, but Vespers and other evening services as well. The disciplines involved in fasting also appeal, as they are a way of living a life in Christ all the time, not just Sunday.

It IS about WORSHIP...And no parish truly worships that does not welcome, so clearly, we need to be certain our hearts go out not just to our own, but to our visitors, that they may see Christ in each one of us, and know that here dwelleth the Lord (whether He sits on pews or not).

Dear Friends,

I'm not sure that the "tradition" of no pews was observed by many of our immigrant ancestors in the 1890s. The following is excerpted from the history of St. Nicholas Church in Minersville, PA., one of the early coal miner parishes. The congregation was mostly young families, so seating for the elderly would not seem to be an issue. They did not install an Iconostas for twenty years, but they had pews.


The full text can be found at:

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/StNicholas/origin.htm


John
Pilgrim and Odd Duck

Dear Father Michael:

With all due respect, I don�t think you understand the dynamics of a church without pews.

It is very difficult to describe what has been achieved at St. Elias.

None of the issues you bring up apply to our church.

If it is so successful here, why would it be regarded as such an aberration if introduced elsewhere?

At St. Elias we have been able to create a vibrant, pastorally viable, and deeply spiritual place, �San-pews�.

All this is due mainly to the quality of our services.

The services are not rendered on a clock, but are done to a natural flow and purpose.

Our people understand and appreciate this.

Most of our people (about 80%) are under 50, many are young families, but most of our seniors still stand during services.

It is my personal belief that people today are afraid of a church without pews because they think that they will not be able to physically endure the exertion of standing through a liturgy.

I am not talking about people with infirmities (my own knees are�, arthritis you know) but strong healthy individuals.

I know that in most Roman and some Byzantine Parishes the �Pew-less� concept would be laughable because the poor quality of the services have made them generally unbearable.

I once went to a service with my mother at her Portuguese parish, and by the time we arrived most of the pews were taken.

A rather interesting thing occurred, I became very annoyed and said to myself, �God how am I going to get through this thing standing� and then I realized �what am I saying this will be over in 45 minutes, tops!�.

My record for standing at services (one day) is nine hours.

Pews are not the cause of the decline in post-modern church society but they do represent a lessoning of our physical contact with ancient liturgical traditions.


defreitas


PS.

I don�t know what picture you are looking at on the Website but people do not stand 10 yards from the front (there is of course a rug in the center and no one stands on that during the service).

By the way I too have a favorite spot which I like to �stand� on.

I would add some other thoughts as far as keeping the front area clear: Of course it must be, to a great extent, for entrances.

Also, many parishes with pews now are uncomfortable at the idea of standing without them because the closeness of the pews to each other makes them stand in ONE place, often with very stiff legs...very uncomfortable indeed. As anyone would know who has leg or back problems, it is the ability to move that makes standing bearable. Perhaps people base their fears of going "pewless" based of what it feels like to stand confined IN a pew, rather than free.

Ilya,

Your assertions that pews are evil and heretical, and your suggesting that those who might move to eliminate them at their next meeting are not concerned about the liturgical well-being of their parish do not ISTM amount to pushing the envelope.
Rather you are pushing buttons.

By calling pews evil and heretical what are you implying about parishes that have them and people that use them? I suspect that people in pews, kneeling on a Sunday, and praying: "Have mercy on me, a sinner" are probably still pleasing to God, and advancing their salvation.

I have been in churches with and without, and from my experience have little preference. One disturbing aspect of this thread, however, is lack of concern given to the idea of marginalizing the infirm and elderly, seating them at the periphery. The finer points of liturgical worhip - devotion and fidelity - I learned from the old folks who were present for every service, every day. Their example, was as simple as they were, but is simply unforgettable. I would hope that these stalwarts, these founders and benefactors, these teachers would be front-and-center in any church.

I would have thought that a pewless church was more friendly to elderly or handicapped persons? The average space (entrance) at the side of a pew is about a foot! ...not handicapped friendly.

In industry, wider doors, wider spaces, are everywhere encouraged. Without pews, wheel chairs may go anywhere, persons with 'walkers' and canes have no obstacles to get around. For those who cannot stand due to infirmity, chairs or a bench may be placed anywhere.

Father, bless!

I completely agree. My parish is pewless, but has fold out stools in case people with infirmities need to sit down. It works out to everyone's benefit.

In Christ,
Anthony

Folding or stacking chairs. Like bringing patio furniture to Odpust. Very nice, and much better than pews off to the side, IMO.

All Greek Orthodox churches have installed ramps for accessability of the handicapped.

I have rarely, if ever, seen wheel chair bound persons attend church, unfortunately. We do, however, have one middle aged handicapped woman in my parish who is a devout church goer. Since her own husband generally doesn't like taking her to and fro, (he is not a church goer), there is always a parishioner to help out, whether she wishes to attend Bible study or Divine Liturgy. She generally sits right up front at the corner chair.(We have special chairs lined up in pew style instead of wooden pews). She is wheeled there by a member of the parish council, down the center aisle, and helped into the seat from the wheel chair. Her wheel chair then disappears and is brought back by a parish council member at the end of service, and she is once again helped out of her seat. Father steps down from the solea in order to give her Holy Communion.

In Christ,
Alice

djs,

you just don't get it do you?

LET ME MAKE MYSELF CLEAR YET AGAIN:

-pews COME from a protestant tradition, the pews are not heretical in themselves (I don't know where that idea came from).

-for those churches that DO get rid of pews I would advocate benches along the walls and foldong stools that can be easily moved around.

-for those parishes that at this time would find it impossible to remove their pews-work on perfecting other aspects of the services- though the more you do this the more you will realize what you are missing out on by having pews.

-I most definately did not intend to offend anybody, In fact I am amazed at the strength of faith of people that can endure "low masses" week after week. You are heroes.

Sometimes pushing the envelope means getting a lot of people upset over little stupidities. For many years my father was ridiculed for things ranging from removing flags from the church to his use of english to the way he bowed. The people that were really upset fell away. From the original 10 families that started our parish only 3 reamain. But what has happened is a blossoming of really great people. There have been NO problems, scuffles or any stupidities from the parishoners. At general meetings if a proposition is made it is always wholeheartedly supported. We don't have any old nationalistic folk who for some reason like to cause problems. After the flag removal incident (Welland in the '70s) one of the parish concil members told my father that "the fish stinks from the head"- When we moved to Brampton (in the mid '70s), my sister (who was very young) was looking out the window and said in ukrainian "what are those men doing out there?" In fact they were putting up a "FOR SALE" sign outside the rectory, ipso facto evicting my father without telling him (supposedly this was because he was bowing too low when he crossed himself). So you see, pushing the envelope means pushing buttons- and if you don't like it, well, -
Anyways, sometimes you have to separate the wheat from the chaff.
"How blessed is it when brothers dwell together in unity..."
-it really really is, but it takes years, effort and endurance.
don't give up,

Ilya

Slava Isusu Christu!

I believe you said it yourself in your very first post of this thread:

Very much enjoyed and appreciated Ilya's post of earlier today. It's all true. Incognitus