www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology pews, yet again

Dear Father Michael,

Bless!

I have enjoyed seeing you on EWTN, both in 'Light of the East' and while officiating a Divine Liturgy in the EWTN chapel. Infact, both my husband and I were awe struck at just how beautiful a Divine Liturgy it was...and all in English! (If only the Greek Orthodox who make decisions regarding language could have heard it! )

Anyway, your post makes many valid points. It is nice to see that I am not totally alone in my opinion...I think that St. Philaret of Moscow said it best..."It is better to sit and think of God, than to stand and think of your legs”.
...and I know that I have thought of the latter in churches without pews.

In the great historic churches of Italy there are also no pews...however, there are chapels with pews, and without them, where would one like myself go when one feels the need to pray and contemplate?

In Christ our Lord and Saviour,
Alice

Dear Alice,
Thank you for your compliment! We should all use the gifts and resources for God's greater honor and glory. I just don't think debating about the usefulness of pews merits all this attention. They are useful. I just had to throw my two cents in.

To have pews or not to have pews is not the question we should be asking.
As for some saying that pews in church is our downfall is just absurd.
Unwelcoming people sitting in those pews is.

The all to dominant "Country Club" mentality in our churches is it's greatest enemy, not pews. If you're not "nash" ("ours") you're looked upon as an intruder. Thankfully in Southern parishes, and missions, that is something which can and has been changed.
The Miami parish has Hatians, and other nationalities who love the singing and services, and parish life in our churches, and who, I would imagine, appreciate sitting in the pews for the petitions, and homily, and to pray.

You're right on, and from a Greek Orthodox point of view to boot! God love you! You're correct; a pewless church does not a true Eastern Catholic or Orthodox Church make! I guess many see regression as forward movement. Go figure!
Fr.Michael

I've enjoyed Liturgy in parishes with pews and without. But, I have seen first-time visitors walk in a parish without pews and only stay for a minute or two and then walk right out. Apparently, they could not find a comfort level. My own wife was very put off by being forced to stand. She did not want to have to sit by herself away from everyone else. It was quite a sore subject for her.

I think whoever said that pews were heretical was speaking tongue-in-cheek but there are many great Orthodox parishes with pews and I would hesitate to say they are in any way heretical because they have pews.

Having said all that I would not say it's a step backwards. Having both kinds of parishes (with pews and without) is a healthy thing. I, for one, would be attracted to a parish without pews. But, I daresay, the average American or Canadian would not be and that is something we should consider.

Pseudo Athanasius - I agree with you whole heartedly. Our Byzantine Liturgy is one of beautiful motion Entrances, Litya, processions - which can certainly be hindered architecturally by pews. I thank God and the Admin we have this Forum to discuss issues such as this one.

Benches along the walls and even rows of benches work well. I have been to the Nativity Old Rite parish in Erie that Dave mentioned above, and their arrangement of rows of benches works fine.

We had a post above from Father mentioning that 75 % of some of our parishes were populated with senior citizens. This is sad indeed. The recent discussions of statistics of BCC parishes and clergy are bleak.

I don't think anyone here said or implied that as Father alleged above. At least that statement was never made. The thread topic rather leads to a deeper liturgical issue.

I don't disagree that there are some nice Orthodox and Greek Catholic parishes with pews. I have had some profound liturgical experiences in Greek churches (I love you guys, Alice!), and I have never seen a pewless Greek parish.

On the other hand, this thread was started by a young man, and some of those who posted here on this very thread I know are under 30. To me that is a cause for joy and hope, knowing that not only do we have youth interested in the Church but they are also interested in that authentic tradition that the Holy Father so often exhorts us to return to.

Not only that, he is offering his handiwork to improve the liturgical beauty of any parishes who wish to take him on. Instead of commending, once again we have the clergy here being less than enthused or supportive.

NO DOUBT I agree with Fr. that we have to do a better job with hospitality. The social aspect shouldn't be ignored. I also do agree with Fr. that pastoral sensitivity does have to be taken into account in older parishes. One parish I know of is taking a multi-year phased approach. Last year about 1/3 of the pews went. Next year, another 1/3 are planned.

In this parish, within the first year, most of those who initially showed signs of discomfort with the first removal became used to the new arrangement. But in the meantime, about a dozen new parishoners joined, most of whom stand in the open space. All of the new parishoners have commented positively on the open space.

Having been to St. Elias and other open Orthodox churches, speaking for myself there is absolutely nothing so free and "comfortable" for me liturgically as being unconfined and able to move, venerate icons, have fuller Entrances, etc. And as someone who serves at the altar I DEFINITELY appreciate having more space at the Entrances, Communion, Litya, baptisms, weddings, etc. etc.

On the other hand I don't see our continued loss of faithful and clergy and an aging laity as forward movement, either. If Fr. is implying this thread is defining a regression, then I say let us regress away if it means more faithful, fervent youth interested in parish and liturgical life and youth interested in lost craft and artisanship for our Church.

Dear father,

since when is fasting for one hour before the liturgy instead of the whole night progress? By that logic you could be eating up to the epistle (supposing you don't cut corners in the service). If we really want the people off the street we should take a look at what is going on out there. I am meeting more and more people that are attracted to orthodox worship because it is so natural and organic (again this is supposing you do things traditionally).

As for the other post about the Old Believers,

I have been to the church in Erie several times and their set up is quite good. They have several benches on either side towards the back. This requires a very wide nave though, but if you can pull it off it is a good idea. ONLY old people use them.
Absolutely no problems finding space for prostrations there.

Keep on truckin',

Gavshev

FrMichael,
I have stood for a liturgy for 5 hours and I have "fainteh not", so im sure others can do it.
Stephanos I
And PS people do it everyday at work.

I remember once going to church on New Years day (liturgy of St. Basil the Great). I arrived late because of the New Years Eve party I went to a couple of hours before. The church was packed, I couldn't find a place to sit and all the leaning space on the walls were taken up by these guys (they probably went to a party similar to mine) who were looking at me with blood shot eyes as if they were saying "What are you looking at? You should have come earlier". I really wished on that day that I had a place to sit.That's why I would say that I'm not totally against pews.
Lauro

Dear Gavshev,

While I admire your zeal for a young man your age, you should remember that the spirit and the heart are much more important for ANY Christian, Byzantine, Latin, or otherwise, than EXTERNALS of tradition.

In this light, I admonish you my dearest little brother in Christ, to remember that Father Michael is a member of the HOLY Priesthood, and as such should be afforded the proper respect. Without respect and love, pewless churches mean nothing!

Additionally, we should be very honored to have Father Michael on this forum. I have been very impressed by him on television. As many of you are Byzantine rite Catholic, you should be proud, (and be giving thanks to our Lord), that you have Father Michael not only representing you to the Latin Catholic world of television, but also sharing and teaching them about the beauty of the East.

Please reconsider your tone, Gavshev, when addressing the clergy. Remember that asking the blessing of a priest is also a revered tradition of the East, and one that is much more beneficial for your salvation than pews.

Wishing you every blessing in your spiritual walk,
In Christ our Lord,
Alice

Father Sopoliga,

Thanks for this blessedly simple bit of realism.

--Tim

Were the lack of pews in the old countries a tradition or an economic reality ?

In the Ruthenian lands (and I would bet in Greece also) the people were poor relative to North Americans and rarely built churches which were able to accommodate all of their parishoners. This would be true for small village churches as well as for the larger city shrines.

Even with multiple divine liturgies on a Sundays, the churches had difficulties accommodating the parishoners. The only way to maximize the space was to have the people stand. Pews of course would only minimize church space.

Building a church in Eastern Europe use to a multi-generational affair for most parishes. Most churches were 'modest' and certainly not spacious. Even if a church were to be built in a year (or less) usually the keys to temple belonged to a 'financier' who would essentially charge rent for the use of the premisses. Building a church was financially difficult for most parishes, therefore it can be said with certainty that adding relatively expensive wooden pews (or even chairs) was a luxury which could not be afforded by most parishes.

Perhaps this economic reality (or necessity) has morphed into a 'tradition', but does it help the parishoners come closer to God ?

As a side note, the RC churches in Europe do not have pews either. My guess is for the same reasons.

I know that in our parish there are always some peple who preffer to stand throughout the services - usually at the back of the church. Therefore, I would agree that in principle it may be a good idea to begin removing some of the benches. Father Lance mentioned in another thread that they removed 40% of their pews in a parish. If you are to remove pews in a step fashion, how would this be done best (ie: front, back, sides, middle, etc...) ?

quote by Hritzco:

"Were the lack of pews in the old countries a tradition or an economic reality ?"

Dear Friends,

A photograph of my Latin parish church circa 1880 shows no pews except a few against the wall.

Economic reality or tradition? I don't know.

Perhaps at some point in time God said, "Let there be pews."

Paul

Dear folks,

I know i've done this before and again I appologize. When I write here, it is always with a smile on my face and the knowlage of the fact that as a young person I can get away with saying certain things. I meant no disrespect to father, for obvious reasons I feel I can speak a little more freely to clergy. It is probably a bad habit and I will work on it.

A few of you had it bang on, things done in the right spirit are always acceptable to God. However we must realize what God has given to us, out faith and liturgical traditions, and strive always to be perfect in these.

You also must realize that these are the traditions that I grew up with. Kindof funny that the older generation prefers the so called "progress" of pews and no fasting, while the younger generation (at least all the kids I know) like the more demanding rules. Remeber also that these guidelines and traditions are for our own good.

Kids wand substance, something they can really sink their teeth into (as long as it it more than an hour before Communion, hehehe).

So please, when you read my posts, imagine me writing or speaking with a smile. Take it easy- chill out- don't worry about a thing, 'cause every little thing is gonna be alright.

Ilya

Dear Gavshev,
Alice is right, and sounds like my mom so take her chastening to heart with a smile. I, myself, do not take offence at anyone's passion, especially when it comes to our faith.

I've stirred up a few people on these forums and there's nothing wrong with thoughtful and sincere debate for the "good" of our church. Being self critical either personally or as a group or business or any in any other endeavor is to be encouraged and welcomed, again, with charity in one's heart.

If you think people on this forum forget that they're speaking to a priest, and "should" be at least respectful for the Priesthood, you should hear some of my callers on my weekly live radio show on Sunday mornings! (Sunday morning radio, being another great outreach avenue which is usually not that expensive and any faith filled person can do it, if not a priest).

If you remember, Gavshev, St.Peter said some pretty bold things to Our Lord, and he became "The Rock" of the Church! So there you go, you just might be a good priest, and even a bishop (if you don't marry) one day!


God bless you!

Fr. Michael

Well, for one thing it's quite possible to find Greek Orthodox Churches without pews. Option a) go to Greece. Option b) find an Old Calendarist church. Larger areas of Greek settlement have them.
Next, if you anticipate wanting to be seated and that finding a place to sit could be difficult, bring along a portable stool or chair. These days they make light-weight ones which are more than adequate.
Third, the implication that it's much easier to start from scratch without pews than to get rid of them is, of course, correct - especially if the names of the donors are on the pews!
Incognitus

Oh, Oh!

Although I am a mother, I am younger than Father Michael, so I must sound pretty old if I sound like his mother!

I hope that Gavshev has taken my 'motherly' admonitions in the loving spirit I am sure most know me by here...