www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology pews, yet again

I had a "Proto"-Subdeacon in my former parish,the servant of God Igor, who recently reposed at the age of 92.He had served as subdeacon to the Metroplitan of his native Lithuania and two ROCOR Metroplitans.He taught my sons how to serve whenever we had a visiting bishop, something which my elder son continues to this day.

Yeah, whispering isn't always effective... a protopoddiakon may either yell, forcefully command or push/pull servers, deacons and priests into place.

Dave

A young ex-Marine who serves fairly regularly called me the "liturgy DI". I took that as a great compliment...

My sons have other names for me...

Dave, you forgot about the bishops. Sometimes they are the hardest to herd...

I'm with Alex on this one and with Diak's point about the unproductivity of the banter on the other thread ; Diak and I part company when he suggests that this thread is more productive :rolleyes: - frankly, I think both have long since outlived the concept of productive discussion and meaningful exchange of ideas.

This is the 213th posting on this thread (that assumes that no one gets another one in while I'm finger-typing here as I feed the baby). It's been awhile since any offered new or persuasive thoughts on either side of the argument or posted anything which otherwise made interesting reading. The sole exceptions:

(1) Father Michael, whose insightful commentary gave me a new perspective;

(2) Incognitus, whose promise to deliver The Tale of the Protodeacon will be the sole reason for me to continue watching this thread;

(3) Anhelyna, whose post provided the link to Ilya's great instructional piece (which is lacking only in failing to list the Lego Meister(s) by name in the credits - and to identify the Lego set from which some of those pieces are derived );

(4) Alex, whose plea for the thread to end was the kindest idea offered in a while , and whose subsequent post in response to Diak, acknowledging that the Patriarchal thread might be worse, was a wonderful testament in support of his recent assertions that he's learned to "let go" https://www.byzcath.org/bboard/icons/icon16.gif

(5) Diak, whose comment on the Patriarchal thread may give people pause and, hopefully, cause it to self-destruct
https://www.byzcath.org/bboard/icons/icon16.gif

Many years,

Neil

Dear Neil,

Are any Melkite Churches in the U.S. without pews?

He is our peace,

Paul

Dear Diak,

Kinda like herding cats?

Paul

I an not so sure, Neil. Something as basic as posture in worship, or even fostering a more profound worship experience is a topic worth discussing.

As Byzantines we pride ourselves in worshipping with the whole body, involving all of the senses.

If that posture, that whole body being involved, is hindered, then there is a problem. I would suggest Read Fr. Andriy Chirovsky's article which is one of the best and most compelling on this subject I have yet seen.

You are right about the Patriarchate, I have spent far too much time over the last 20 years thinking and talking about that...

Have courage; be of good cheer! I'm writing up that story of the heroic proto-subdeacon and will post it as soon as I have it completed to the best of my knowledge (alas, the hero perished in the concentration camps, and we do not know where).
As for pleas to close this thread, I submit that an exchange of light-hearted banter is not the worst thing I've ever run into.
Incognitus

Incognitus - thanks Look forward to reading this intriguing sounding tale.

Neil - Incredible though it may seem - I have enjoyed this thread - originally when I came on this Board, I did not understand what this business about pewless churches and so on was about. I went to Lourdes and found my first Church that had been built without pews [ but had put folding chairs in]. Then last November I was able at last to experience worship from a standing position and I found that I enjoyed it. When I had the opportunity to sit I found I preferred to stand - me a Latin preferring to stand ??

Frankly I have appreciated 'hearing' what people thought,and their reasons for their belief about which is better. It has confirmed what I have now understood myself - and I know what I would choose - pewed or pewless - if I have the opportunity.

I like these often lighthearted threads - there is under it all a large chunk of teaching - and to me , an oldie, it is often easier to take in then a well constructed, but long , post. Short things allow for consolidation I find. There I go again - admitting to the grey hairs :p

Anhelyna

Paul,

I believe Holy Transfiguration in McLean, VA is without pews. There are others which have removed some, but not all, to the best of my knowledge.

Many years,

Neil

See, that is where it gets tricky. It wouldn't be too appropriate for a subdeacon to move a bishop around. A good friend of mine who is a subdeacon came up with a creative solution: an orlets on some fishing line.

A laser pointer might also work well for telling clergy where to stand.

Dave

That's why you play a lot of frisbee to get your wrist in shape for the "Orlets Flip" so you can sail those orletsi out in front of him right where you want him to go.

By Popular Demand, here it is:

The Heroic Proto-Subdeacon

It all began before World War I, when a young archimandrite from Greece did graduate studies at the Saint Petersburg Theological Academy. He finished his studies and went home to Greece before the war broke out. As well-educated young Archimandrites in Greece are apt to do, he became a bishop. After the war and the Russian Revolution, in the very early twenties, he returned to Saint Petersburg in late June for a holiday, to see some of his friends again and to visit the places where he had spent his graduate school days.
Being a bishop, he was accommodated in the Saint Alexander Nevsky Lavra, which was still open at the time, and was of course invited to offer the Pontifical Divine Liturgy in the monastery cathedral (should you visit Saint Petersburg yourself, you may find all this directly across the street from the Hotel Moskva, at the end of the Underground). Late June in Saint Petersburg is the time of the White Nights, which means late night socializing (bishops, of course, do not attend parties, but they are known to socialize once in a while) and difficulty in sleeping, since it doesn�t get dark. Unable to sleep normally, the good bishop got up rather early in the morning, put his riasa on over his night-shirt, donned a pair of slippers, and went out for a stroll in the monastery gardens. Finding a pleasant niche with a nice bench, he sat down for a bit and was soon caught up in, er, shall we say . . . yes, that�s it . . . �meditation�. Since his night-shirt did not come equipped with a time-piece, the good bishop lost track of the time. After some deep contemplation, the bishop resumed his stroll but, having been a bit turned around, instead of walking straight back to his cell, he strolled straight into the square outside the cathedral.
Acolytes were posted, watching for the bishop to arrive. As soon as the bishop was spotted entering the square, the bells pealed joyfully, the choirs began singing, and the procession emerged from the cathedral: the priest who had served the Prothesis, the Protodeacons with smoking thuribles, the Deacons, the Subdeacons with Mandyas, dikirion, trikirion and so forth, the altar boys bearing the eagle-rugs, crozier and the pontifical candle-stick, and loads of the faithful. The entourage duly escorted His Grace the Bishop into the narthex and the nave, up to the Icon-Screen to venerate the icons, and then up to the top of the great kathedra (seven steps � I�ve been there and counted them myself) for the ever-popular ancient rite of vesting the Hierarch for the Divine Liturgy.
The acolytes were bearing the trays with the hierarchal vestments, the Proto-Subdeacon was standing directly in front of the bishop, facing the bishop, and on either side were two more subdeacons to do the work of the vesting. The Protodeacon intoned the first prayer (for the sticharion); the subdeacons removed the Mandyas, and the Proto-Subdeacon opened the riasa, expecting to remove that as well. On glimpsing the night-shirt, the Proto-Subdeacon, who was a quick-witted young man of high competence well able to think on his feet (the sort of person known in Russian as a soobrazitelny paren�) immediately drew the riasa closed again and whispered his instructions to the other four subdeacons.
On by-the-numbers drill from the Proto-Subdeacon, the other four subdeacons slowly lowered the sticharion over the Bishop, whilst the Proto-Subdeacon very carefully slipped the riasa downwards so that the assembled faithful were spared certain views not considered customary during the Pontifical Liturgy. Still on improvised orders from the Proto-Subdeacon, two subdeacons held the sleeves of the sticharion tightly while the remaining two subdeacons put their own hands into the sticharion sleeves from the wrist up, so to speak, and drew the bishop�s hands through the wrist aperture while the first two subdeacons tied the strings, again sparing the multitudes any disedifying glimpses. As a result of these maneuvers, nobody else realized that the bishop was wearing nothing but a night-shirt under the vestments. The ritual continued as usual.
As soon as the reading of the Hours commenced, the Proto-Subdeacon wrote a note to the Namiestnik (the Father Superior) of the Lavra, explaining What was What � or, more to the point, what was NOT what � and asking for further instructions by return, so to speak. He then gave the note to the youngest altar boy � who could not read � with a stern injunction to deliver this note to Father Superior and not come back without an answer. The altar boy soon returned and gave the Proto-Subdeacon a note from Father Superior asking him to keep things under control and promising to come into the altar at the time of the Lord�s Prayer (before Holy Communion).
Sure enough, during the Lord�s Prayer Father Superior appeared. When the Royal Doors were safely closed for the communion of the clergy, and the bishop had received Holy Communion, Father Superior approached, took a blessing, and told the visiting bishop that instead of the usual ritual of unvesting the bishop at the altar (with open Royal Doors) and processing him back to his cell in anterion, riasa, klobuk and Mandyas, they would process him back to his cell in full vestments. The bishop took the opportunity to mention to Father Superior that the subdeacons had �manhandled� him roughly during the vesting. Father Superior came a bit closer, took the sticharion of the bishop in his right thumb and forefinger, and said: �Vashe Preosviashchenstvo, Vy priishli siuda sevodnia . . . nalegke� (Your Grace seems to have come today with insufficient luggage!�).
I grieve to report that the Proto-Subdeacon later vanished into the concentration camps. The bishop went back to Greece, where (we hope) he mended his ways. The junior subdeacon survived, somehow got out of the USSR, and ended his days at Jordanville, where in after years he used to recount the above narration as a sort of party piece.
This all sounds hilarious and in retrospect it is. But in the context of the period, when the League of Militant Atheists was doing any number of things to mock the Church and annoy the believers, the quick wits of the Proto-Subdeacon probably saved the Church from a horrible scene � the faithful would have leapt to the conclusion that the bishop was a fake and a provocateur, and used violence to put him out, if not worse. As it was, there was no scandal or trouble, and the only person to be embarrassed was the poor bishop himself. We trust that he learned something from the experience.

Incognitus

Thank you so much for the tale!

I remember the first time I observed the vesting of the Hierarch. I remember thinking to myself, "One Bishop. Some assembly required."

Sharon

Ironically, that is embroidered on the inside of the sakkos. This isn't well known, though, since it is usually in Greek or Slavonic.