www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Serious Fasting Questions

Ray,

I honestly do not see the condescention or self-righteousness in Pyrohy's posts. But I sense defensiveness in yours. Is there, perhaps, another issue at play here? Perhaps you read something the wrong way and it continues to rub you the wrong way?

The amount of upset seems disproportionate to the severity of the issue.

And I have to ask, must one be a priest in order to have an option that matters or counts? Can not the laity offer one another insights and answers?

I hope that is not the case and that we can all offer one another opinions, advice, help and most of all prayers!

I pray that you find the reason for and eventually the benefit in fasting. It is hard, and when I first tried it I thought to myself, "Man this blows. I can't believe I'm doing this. For what? I means nothing to me."

Then every time I had a hunger pang and each time I longed to reach for a 'forbidden' (for that is how I saw it at the time) I would say a prayer. At first it was just, "Jesus help me!" Now it is the Jesus Prayer.

I find that the number of small prayers that I offer up each day during the Lenten Fast brings me one step closer to praying without ceasing.

I'm a work in progress, but fasting has indeed helped me to find spiritual growth.

I pray, dear brother, that you find a similar power in fasting.

Peace be with you,

Carole

Fasting, with all of its specific rules and regulations, puts me in mind, at times, of �The Old Law.�

Many of those who do indeed fast, also remind me at times of The Pharisees. They parade around with a sense of self-righteousness that is very much like the Pharisees themselves.

I do NOT believe that fasting is going to get you even one step closer to Heaven. By the same token, by NOT FASTING, given fasting usually involves an unnatural deprivation of foods to keep the body healthy, which in itself is sinful, will keep you OUT of Heaven!

Lest we forget, Matthew 15:11
�What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.' "

Ray,

I do not know why you ask the question and when the answer is not to what you are looking for, argue the point. If you are looking for support of your personal belief, you are most likely not going to find it here.

As a priest, I strongly suggest that you speak with your parish priest regarding this.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Ray,

Since the discussion is continuing, allow me to attempt to make a few more substantive points in response to some of your specific concerns. However, I will note with the others that you have received a response from a priest and confessor to your original question, so the rest of this is perhaps more tangential than substantial.

You ask: Here are some things to consider. Last Sunday was the Sunday of Cheesefare, and the Gospel reading contains these words from the mouth of our Savior (emphasis added): "Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face; That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly." (Matthew 6:16-18)

Here the Lord speaks to us about when we fast (not if), and then says that the Father will reward us for our fasting. Perhaps this is not a "demand," but this does indeed seem to be a suggestion from our Savior that we are to fast (and to behave a certain way when doing so) and that such fasting will be beneficial to us.

I ask you also to consider some other things: what was the first thing that Christ did before doing spiritual battle with the devil? He fasted. What was it that Adam and Eve refused to do in their original sin against God? They refused to fast from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. What does Christ say to the devil when the devil tells him to turn stones into bread if he is hungry? "Man shall not live by bread alone." Obviously, there is perhaps something more to fasting than any of us (myself included) may understand.

All of this is not to mention the additional benefits: remembering those who are hungry, trusting in God that He will provide for us what is needed, abstaining from food which comes from animals which have blood so that we may instead focus on receiving only the Body and Blood of Savior in the Eucharist, etc., etc.

You add this question: I confess to not seeing the point you are making here. Is the Church the pillar and ground of Truth? Is the Church the mystical body of Christ? Does the Lord speak to us through the Church? I think the answer is yes, to all of these questions. Now, while the suggestion to fast may not be a declaration of irrevisable dogma (rather, it is a discipline), it is probably still important to listen (especially in light of the above).

Finally, you have mentioned your failure to understand the need for such discipline. You say: I have addressed some of this above; do keep in mind, however, that fasting is not about "putting oneself through . . . misery," but rather trusting in God, increasing prayer and charity toward others, and focusing less on the self.

Here is perhaps the heart of the issue. You must understand that Christ is the Great Physician, come to heal our souls and bodies. Further, Christ and His Spirit speaks through the Church. If I go to the doctor's office and he tells me to exercise more, I do not question him and wonder why he is giving me such a rule and causing me misery. I understand that his purpose is to heal me, and to help me to progress and be as well as possible. The same holds with the Church and with our Great Physician. Sometimes taking medicine bothers us (it tastes bad!); I expect no difference with spiritual medicine.

May God bless you,
Maximos

Ray,

Regarding those who appear to fast like the Pharisees, the Gospel reading from Matthew 6 addresses this as well. It does not tell us not to fast, but rather to not behave as if we are downtrodden while we are fasting. In other words, there is a good way to fast and a bad way to fast. Certainly we are not to believe that our fasting gets us into Heaven -- only the Incarnation, Crucifixion, and Ressurrection of Christ do that -- but we do believe that Christ and His Church are here to heal us, to offer us spiritual medicine, and to assist us in our struggle toward becoming more Christ-like. I take the medicine of the Fast just like I take medicine, however much I may not like it, from any other doctor.

God bless,
Maximos

Perhaps your understanding of fasting is insufficient? Or you are pridefully refusing to acknowledge the good? Even our Lord found benefit in fasting and taught the disciples to fast.


Then they do not follow the instructions of our Lord. And that, my friend, is their own problem. But we should never base our choice to or not to follow the teachings of Christ on the behaviour (inward or outward) of others.

So those that fast, who remind you of the Pharisees 'turn you off' in a manner of speaking. Okay. There are those who attend the Divine Liturgy who turn me off. Am I therefore excused from attendance at the Divine Liturgy?

There are those who go to Confession who make a big outward show of doing so. It turns me off. Am I now exempted from the need to confess my sins?

Then sadly, in this, you deny the teaching of the Church and you prooftext the Scriptures in order to support your denial of Christ and His Church.

I mean not to be Pharisee-like or self-righteous or judgemental. Though I greatly fear that is what you will call me.

But our Lord, Jesus Christ, Himself teaches us to fast. He teaches us, through both word and deed, the benefit of fasting.

That you see no value in it personally is one thing. And it may be argued (though I don't believe it to be true) that you are right and that there is no value in fasting for you.

But here you state unequivocably and in a broad manner that fasting, at any time for any reason, keeps one out of Heaven.

I will continue to keep you in my prayers, Ray. But I can no longer pretend that you are speaking only for yourself. You have now crossed the line from speaking philosophically about fasting as it pertains to you into denying the teachings of Christ Himself.

Dear Brethren,

I am asking you to move on.

This thread has deteriorated into an attack of one on the other, and of defensiveness, by many posters. The whole atmosphere is not compassionate. Ray's post can be just as scandalous to a seeker as other posters' posts could be. Let's remember that this is the beginning of the Great Fast and that the great doctor and Father of the Church, St. John Chrysostom said: "It is better to eat meat than to devour your brother".

Many parishioners in my parish do not yet fast for the period of Great Lent. They are not judged or condemned by anybody. Hopefully, the fact that our priest explains the importance of the Fast, meets with and encourages parishioners to meet with him to discuss the Fast and to structure a program for them-- (acknowledging that some must take baby steps on their journey)-- and that we serve ONLY fasting food at coffee hour after Sunday Liturgy will inspire more and more to fast.

Let's also understand that not all people are able to express themselves as well as others in the written word and that we are not all at the same point of enlightenment in our spiritual growth in the Church. Pray for Ray to be enlightened to *WANT* to fast for the right reasons. As a cradle Orthodox, I have known too many people who fast perfectly and do it only out of tradition, who fast perfectly yet do not go to confession, who fast perfectly and whose hearts are angry and cold, and whose tongues utter all sorts of gossip and condemnation of others.They follow the law, yet have far to go in the spirit. That is why my priest, after preaching about fasting, always qualifies that 'what comes out of the mouth is equally or more important than what goes in', emphasizing the Lenten ascesis of the Fast as a part of a balance of disciplines we must attain for our spiritual growth.

I agree that at this point Ray should find a priest that he feels comfortable with to talk to, and wishing him a blessed Lent, I will ask that we all end it here. Thank you.

In Christ,
Alice, Moderator

P.S. to Ray: Actually, a well balanced diet of Lenten foods of legumes, shellfish, soy products, olive oil, nuts, LOTS of veggies and fruits are much healthier (though, admittedly, perhaps not as enjoyable--it is an acquired taste for the American palate, for sure)than what most of us usually eat in the U.S., and I know lots of Greek people who have done it all their lives and are so healthy that they are not even on one medication at the age of 90 to prove it!

Thank you Alice, for your sincerely Christian post. Great advice too!

I have been severely "attacked" by some of those here in this forum. They show NO Christian love, but they FAST, so they are righteous and I am not! I am just a poor sinner...

I was looking for an answer that I never got here either.

I asked, Is NOT fasting a sin? No one gave me a clear-cut answer, only attacked me and tried to make me feel guilty.

Which one of these "sinless" people will now cast the first stone at me?

Dear Ray,

One thing I would like to share. I see that you are accomplished musician and play the guitar with great proficiency. Your desire to master this instrument must have brought you great pain to your fingers and possible bleeding to your fingertips, not even taking into consideration the long hours of practice. Yet, you pursued this through your love of music. I applaud you!

Can you not apply the same passion for the love of Christ? Even just a little bit? I am sure you can. Many of us will fail through out the Great Fast, but as long as we pick ourselves up, and dust off the dirt, and try again, then I believe we are becoming more proficient in expressing our love to Christ and closing that gap bit by bit towards achieving Theosis. I know you can do it and ask that you at least give it a try.

We have Lenten Praying partners again this year at Church, (done like a secret Santa,) and I am going to be your pray partner this season and will ask that you be given strength. You sound like a good man, and as a team, I think we can succeed and make it a bit more bearable. (pun intended)

We are there for you, Ray.

In Christ,

Michael

Dear Alice,

Please forgive me. I was composing the above during your post.

Michael

Deleted by origial poster

Dear Friends,

Sometimes the best way to fast is to abstain from what gives us pleasure.

Like posting on this thread . . .

Seriously, though, I am a diabetic who needs to have protein regularly.

SOMETIMES having meat or a meat by-product is a necessity for me.

Having lots of sugar and foods with fat is NEVER a necessity and so I'm consigned to a form of disciplined fasting that will last me until the end of my days.

This must be taken into consideration, with one's spiritual Father/Confessor, in dealing with fasting as a whole.

In addition, when I grew up, fasting involved the eating of no meat - but lots of junk food that left my family so "stuffed" that we could barely get out of our kitchen table chairs!

But we had no meat . . .

It was like Erasmus of Rotterdam wrote in his "In Praise of Folly" that at the Final Judgement there will appear a monk who will present a belly full of the highest variety of excellent fish - as proof positive that he fasted a great deal . . .

The "Monk of the Eastern Church" and Archbishop Kallistos Ware in the preface to "The Lenten Triodion" goes into the spiritual significance and necessity of fasting for our spiritual life.

But, for me, it is sufficient that our Lord affirmed that we must fast but fast in private so no one would see us with sorrowful faces etc.

He told those who criticized His disciples for eating on fast days that when the Bridegroom is taken away "in those days they will fast."

And the Church in the Apostolic Canons affirms that Christ commanded the Wednesday and Friday fasts and the Church has the right to establish other Fasts, especially the Great Fast.

And the criticisms about fasting that our brother, Ray, has raised are important to consider.

One Russian Staretz in Tsarist times told the aristocrats with serfs that it is "no wonder your people are ill-tempered during fasts - you should give them time off to attend church and church services so they may pray."

Fasting MUST be accompanied by longer prayer, especially the Jesus Prayer and charitable works.

The Anglican holy man, Nicholas Ferrar of Little Gidding in Huntingdonshire, would recite the entire Psalter in 12 psalm divisions every hour on the hour as the Monks of the Thebaid did - reciting the entire psalter as a community twice in every 24 hours!

And he and his family fasted a great deal so that they may have all the more to give to the poor. As St John Chrysostom said, "Let your fast be to the relief of the poor!"

Fasting need not mean that one is hungry. Fasting can mean no junk food and eating what everyone knows is healthy for them to eat i.e. fruits, nuts, vegetables etc.

And fasting is great training for diabetics and others like me.

When I'm hungry during the day (whether I'm fasting or not) I know I can't turn to a candy bar or something sweet to give me that "filled up" feeling.

One may grab a handful of walnuts or pecans (or a nut mix), or else have peanut butter on grainy bread or something like that to kill one's hunger on the spot.

Fasting is about disciplining our bodies and spirits to make them compliant toward the ways of God which is continual prayer in the Name of the Lord Jesus, converse with the Heavenly host, greater love for our neighbour, in short, an intensification of our life in Christ and Theosis.

Ultimately, fasting is a discipline that is aimed at destroying idolatry in our souls and the temptation toward making idols of material things and pleasures, including unnecessary foods.

Fasting is not limited to food, of course, but involves abstaining from all sorts of sin. It makes our spiritual senses more sober and more alert to the sinfulness that is in our lives that we often don't notice or else justify.

It is a way to purify ourselves and make our prayer and spiritual reading more intense as we train our wills to be open and obedient to God's Will.

Spiritually too, it represents us repenting of the impact of the Original Sin of our First Parents in Eden.

Ultimately, the Fall of Adam and Eve came about because of their refusal to FAST from the fruit of the tree forbidden by God.

They refused to fast because their other senses told them that the fruit looked very pleasant and must taste very good as well.

The forbidden fruit is a symbol of all temptation we face in life - for all sin appears "tasty" to us and so the temptation to commit it is, first and foremost, experienced as a desire to satisfy a hunger that does not lead to life, but to death.

By disciplining ourselves in fasting from what is pleasant to our senses and even our bodily needs, we are more open to the satisfaction of a higher, spiritual hunger - fasting helps us become attuned to that spiritual hunger that the physical drive for food, sensuality etc. often blinds us to.

We cannot experience communion with God if we cannot experience a hunger for that communion - if we do not desire God.

By cutting off not only sinful desires, but also disciplining legitimate desires for food, sexuality and the like, our most important desire for God and communion with Him is finally seen and acutely felt by us.

It is not that the satisfaction of legitimate physical desires is wrong - only that we tend to make an idol out of them, especially in our materialistic, sensate society.

Alexander Schmemann once commented on the question about whether bishops have the right to exempt their flock from fasting.

He said in reply that if it can be shown that it is God Who requires our fasting, then the case could be made that bishops have the right to exempt us from fasting.

But since it is the health of our souls that requires the fasting, the bishops, as physicians appointed by God over the healing of our souls, have no right to withhold medicine, namely fasting, that we need.

Anyway, as I see it . . .

Alex

Dear Michael,

Your post to Ray is a very nice one. I am happy that you wrote it at the same time as mine so that it could get posted.

I can tell you that Ray IS a very good man and you are too for your compassion and desire to pray for him. We ALL need to be lifted up and carried in prayer by others.

You are indeed an angel just like my patron and your avatar St. Michael the Archangel!

With your kind and brotherly post to Ray, I have decided to lock the thread.

I ask all to feel free to continue more generalized threads on fasting on this forum.

In Christ,
Alice, Moderator

P.S. Alex-our posts also overlapped. Thank you for a wonderful and awesome post on fasting.