www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Just My Thoughts

I have learned much so far from you eastern brothers on here. If experience is a teacher, could I offer my humble opinions on your proposed liturgy changes.
1. As a Roman that is 40 years old I can barely remember the Tridentine Rites. However after experiencing the TLM (tridentine latin mass) for the past 5 years and seeing all the varieties and abuses in the Novus Ordo Mass, one thing is clear. While valid, the NO is INFERIOR in language, ceremony, and tradition compared to the NO.
2. I have been to Divine Liturgy only 4 times in my life and I love it. I did not know it was offered on a weekly basis in my diocese until 3 weeks ago. (Perhaps it is not advertised or some of the laity do not want it know due to its reverence and "spirit" of V II.
3. The only change I could suggest would be some cutting of the repition in some of the prayers, but DO NOT MESS WITH THE LANGUAGE, DO NOT PUT POLITICALLY CORRECT NONSENCE IN IT !!!!!!!!!!!!!
4. By making it novus ordinized will only put more distance between you and the EO (this is my opinion)
5. Who cares if the liturgy is a bit long, I bet you met many a Roman who attend your church and does not care.
6. I wish for your comments and I will reply.


Sincerely, A Roman learning, A Roman benefiting from your Eastern traditions and beauty, A Roman wishing for an order outside the local bishop for a Tridentine Rite.

Cutting the repition also puts more distance between the EC and the EO.

More SHOUTING about language shibboleths...

Interesting that this should be considered as separating us from the Orthodox, when AFAIK, the most English liturgical text on the website of the largest English-speaking Orthodox jurisdiction in the US has gender-neutral language in the same places as our proposed text.

These links might give some insight into what is presently going on in Orthodoxy. If anyone can find a link to the SCOBA text please post it.

http://www.thechristianactivist.com/Vol%207/V7Dmitri.htm
http://www.stpaulsirvine.org/html/APCLiturgyissues.htm

ps DanL: you may like to read the article from Irvine for its comment on bringing back the kiss of peace.

Archbishop Dmitri's article is remarkable for its intelligence and common sense.

Incognitus

djs,

thanks for the links. It's interesting that the issues raised by the APC of the GOA (eg, celebrating the services of Holy Week at their appropriate time and not by "anticipation", the anaphora read (chanted) aloud, etc) have already been implemented in the Metropolia of Pittsburgh, yet some here have criticized the hierarchs for doing so.

Archbishop Dimitri writes: If I understand Archibishop Dimitri's defense of Elizabethan or King James English in the Liturgy, should not our preaching be carried out in the same language? One could ask, "Is it not strange and inconsistent to insist upon a "timeless" artistic form of language in our liturgy but not in the language of our preaching?"

If the langauge of the liturgy can only be understood by clergy who have received formal training I'm not sure it can still be leitourgia in the sense of "the work of the people." ISTM that this would clericalism at its worst.

Does anyone know if the Greek Orthodox text uses the same sort of phrasing as our new one apparently does "born of her as a mortal" (from one of the troparions)?

The Greek Orthodox text was cited by Deacon Lance earlier. John Damascene made some good comments on that text in an earlier discussion:

https://www.byzcath.org/bboard/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=003189;p=3

Nec

I am one of those who have criticized the rescheduling of the Holy Week services and I stand by my criticism. I do so for many reasons:

1. Our Church has currently about 40,000 people. About half are over 65. In the next 15-20 years we will loose 15,000-20,000 of them. It is not pastoral to monkey with their spiritual lives. There is no question that we will close a large percentage of our parishes in the next 15 years as the older people go home to the Lord and the younger people migrate from those economically depressed areas to growing areas of the United States.

2. A simple rescheduling of these services does not work. They continued to take form long after they were anticipated. We have discussed this at great length. The Vesper/Basil Liturgy of Holy Saturday was a baptismal Liturgy, not the Vigil of the Resurrection with Pascha Matins attached at the end. The currently mandated formula in the Eparchy of Passaic does not work and is causing people to go elsewhere (or nowhere).

3. The Holy Week services will continue to evolve. We must be patient and pastoral. We must work with the rest of the Byzantine Churches (Catholic and Orthodox).

Several wise posters have reminded us in recent days of Saint Pope Pius X�s directive to �Nec plus, nec minus, nec aliter".

Admin

Dear Nec,

I think that what is on topic and fairly clear from these article and others from Orthodox sources is English countries is this: The shibboleth of Novo-Ordinization, Latinization, and departures from Orthodoxy have been way overblown in the discussions here. Way.

The same process, with the same ideas, and the same problems is being faced by the Orthodox. We are perhaps just a little ahead. (Or perhaps not; I don't know the status of the SCOBA translations.) And we are certainly behind the OCA in the audible anaphora. I understand that there are those that think we should be the LAST to move on with any of these currents. I think it is a demeaning argument.

Moreover, there is little meaning in pointing out that in some Orthodox jurisdiction or another that some revision has that has been proposed is not done. No kidding. With the large number of in communio jurisdictions - not to mention all of the others jurisdictions with various degrees of irregularity - there is no doubt that you can find some group that just abhors one thing or another done by some other group. The point which must be admitted is that you can find these practices in place and under development within Orthodoxy, that these ideas find their origins there (not with the Laints or in the NO), and that no one, within Orthodoxy, is breaking communion over them.

You queried in your push-poll: "We should distance 'as little as possible'from Orthodox practice." As a slogan, like "nec aliter..." this is just so nice. But it has no certain meaning.

Which Orthodox? Easy for Russian Catholics at the turn of the century. But not even easy for them now. MP, ROCOR, ROCiE, ROAC, perhaps even OCA? For us ... we are it. We may have orthodox daughters (as do our sisters in the old-country) but our parent is, like the MP, Constantinople.

So what is the proposal. Find some "average" homogenized practice not actually done by anybody? And assume this as ours. That is as far as one could get from an organic development or an authentic tradition. We are a church, not a theme-park, dressing up and imitating some fictitious average EO praxis! No, instead one ought to think in terms of organic developments and pastoral considerations staying within the variance of canonical Orthodoxy. That is reasonable and is what is happening.

I agree with the administrator's conclusion on the Holy Week services, although not all of his rationales.

The changes are HUGE, and being implemented MUCH TOO FAST. If an alteration on each page in the liturgy was thought to be jarrring by Dr. Tkacz, think of what people might have faced at Pascha - were it not for the fact that many parishes, from what I understand, with great pastoral sensitivity, just disregarded the directives.

If there is a bishop or two, or anyone with any authority on these matters, reading: Please, develop a plan that phases the changes in very gradually. Don't disorient people on Pascha, and stifle the celebration. It is better, as St. John Chrysostom wrote, to do celebrate at the wrong time, then to risk not doing it as a well-knit community.

I disagree. Organic change should be organic, not forced. Any change should be accomplished not just with the other Churches of the Ruthenian recension but also with all of the Churches of Orthodoxy. No Orthodox Church is mandating the changes we have made in the Holy Week services. None are proposing such drastic revisions of the Liturgy.

Can you please provide a list of Orthodox jurisdictions that have MANDATED Vespers/Basil Liturgy/Pascha Matins as the new and improved Easter Vigil? Or MANDATED the placing of the Sacrament of Anointing within the Holy Wednesday Presanctified Liturgy?

Can you please provide a list of Orthodox jurisdictions that have MANDATED the reduction of the antiphons, the elimination of litanies, the taking of the prayers of the first antiphon, the Anaphora, etc. out loud?

I�ll make it easier. Can you provide one other Byzantine Catholic jurisdiction that has done either of the above?

Examples that parishes here and there are experimenting don�t count. The list should be those Churches which have MANDATED revisions either identical or similar to ours.

Sure it does. For us Ruthenians it means that our standard should be the official books of the Ruthenian recension researched and published by Rome at the request of our own bishops. I am very proud of our Ruthenian liturgical heritage. We need to celebrate it and witness it to the world in its fullness. Not change it to suit modern American tastes in Liturgy.

Admin

Dear Administrator,

Please go back and read my posts.
The topic of the thread introduced by leoxpiusx was the liturgy, as was nec's response. My response to Nec was about the liturgy not about the other topics that you introduced.

I have asked several times about the nature of implementation of the revisions. No response has come from anyone although some folks seem to know more than thaey are saying. But the fact is, there have, as yet been no mandates. Just as it appears you are suggesting about the Orthodox.

I have read your posts. I disagree with what you have written.

Dear Administrator,

It would be good if we could put to rest this NO nonsense. It is a gross slur against our hierarchs, against our IELC, against Fr. Petras who patiently endure such gross assaults on his scholarship and character, against the priests who have commented here on the overall goodness of the revisions.

It would be good to refrain from muddying the water on this point by voicing disagreement on an issue that is tangential to the issue of the source of the the ideas behind the revisions.

Golly, ah ah ah ah ah ah

maybe instead of studying EC, EO, or OO I should have stuck to my bottle cap collection hobby. Seems alot less work !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks all, Please continue and I hope my questions don't seem stupid.

Me, LeoxPiusx, Happy to be Roman, Where's a good bottle of scotch when I need one.