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How could anyone believe this kind of garbage?

http://www.xenu.net/index.html

No offense, but I think the balony detection kit could be used in some very useful ways.

http://www.xenu.net/archive/baloney_detection.html

[ 04-25-2002: Message edited by: OrthodoxyOrDeath ]

OrthodoxorDeath,

I read "The Demon Haunted World: Science as a candle in the dark" (which advanced the famous Baloney Detection Kit) by Carl Sagan a few years ago. It is a very good book in dealing with irrationalism and spurious claims that tout themselves as being grounded in empirical facts or science (such as “creationism” or the visitation by UFOs). However I am confused as to what you think it could be useful for in the context of religion (please explain). If scientology is subject to being disproved by science it is because scientology has staked some of its belief system on the truthfulness of bogus scientific claims. Religions that do not do that, such as Christianity, are not subject to the Baloney Detection Kit nor the scientific method. Science and Religion can not prove or disprove the subject of the other. Any differences we as Orthodox have with other religions (no matter how crazy) should be approached on the basis of sound theology, history, and tradition. We should not use Baloney Detection on them. It could backfire. Like I am sure you have heard one hundred times before “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen” (Hebrews 11:1), let us resolve therefore to rely on that and not "facts' as a basis of our religious beliefs.

In Christ,

Aklie Semaet

One aspect of Catholicism and, to a slightly lesser extent, Orthodoxy, is that we do not need to tear down another's beliefs in order to validate our own. Both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches express their own faith without regard to the position another group may take. Thus, for example, Orthodoxy claims that they have grace, but do not claim where grace is not.

Let's continue that fine tradition here. Let's not tear down others that we might be better. Instead, let's look to our own blessings, and seek to build up.

Edward, deacon and sinner

Dear Edward,

I do not know what you meant by “to a lesser extent” so I will let you clarify that. What I was trying to convey in my earlier post to OrthodoxyorDeath was that we should be mindful against using the scientific method in theological discussions.

For instance, once I read an article on a "traditionalists' Orthodox website about Catholic shrines and Icons of Mary performing miracles and Catholic encounters with All-Holy Mary in dreams and other phenomena. The author, being an Orthodox, was off course skeptical about the legitimacy of the Catholic claims.

She proceeded to "refute' documented claims one-by-one using the scientific method, "Occam's razor", logico-deductionsim, etc. It read the same way as when scientists refute UFO sightings reports and that kind of thing. To tell you the truth I was irritated. An atheist or a non-believer could in turn use the very same approach and method to “refute” the claims of Orthodoxy. “For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you (Matthew 7: 2).” That is the point that I was trying to make to OrthodoxyorDeath.

Science is science and Religion is Religion. There is no basis by which to judge one with the standards of the other. Though I am a proud Orthodox 100% I am going to have to agree with the Vatican Holy Father when he said: “The sacred book…does not…teach how heaven was made but how one goes to heaven.”

The criterion for evidence in religion is faith and faith alone. Failing to recognize this got the “Shroud of Turin” crowd in trouble. They staked the basis of their claim on things like “This HAS to be a miracle or else how to you explain..? isms” instead of “I believe and it is simple as that isms.” That opened it up for Occam's razor and scientist lost no time in applying radiocarbon 14 dates to it and showing it to be medieval. Theologians and historians followed suit and demonstrated how it was fake in other respects.

Rationalism, the gift of the Enlightenment, has had a negative effect when it is applied to religion. It has led to the solidification of the Reformation heresy and eventually to an outright denial of the Incarnation and Resurrection by people who call themselves Christians. Let us leave it in the laboratory and keep it out of our Church.

If the intention of OrthodxyorDeath was to "prove' Orthodoxy by "disproving' Scientology USING the Baloney Detection Kit then OrthodoxyorDeath was wrong. If OrthodoxyorDeath's concern however was on the secular aspects of defending ones family, friends, and loved ones from cults in this age of Heaven's Gate types then OrthodoxyorDeath's concern was legitimate and the use of Baloney Detection ok, do you not agree?

God Bless you all.

Aklie Semaet