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Pennances would be imposed based upon the canonical norms. There are "standard" pennances of "excommunication for life until deathbed" for apostacy, 20 years for murder, 10 years for abortion, 7 years for adultery, 3 years for killing soldiers in battle, etc. Sodomy, incest, fornication and others also carry canonical pennances of varying lengths.

Any pennance would be adjusted and most usually ameliorated depending upon the circumstances and in order to apply God's great mercy upon the sinner.

Furthermore, during a pennance, as one demonstrated true repentance for the sin and an understanding of how it distanced oneself from God, one would be readmitted to communion even sooner than the original period of pennance imposed.

In the east, the sin itself is our punishment. The pennance is only there to help us to understand what we've done to ourselves.

In Christ,
Andrew

Alex

When non-Catholics ask me what the priest tells you in the confessional, I tell them that it can vary greatly from priest to priest. I had one priest who (despite being an otherwise likeable fellow) asked me if I was gay, because I told him that I had neither a wife or a girlfriend. He was for the most part a compassionate man, but he just thought it very strange that I didn't have a girlfriend. By the time I finally found a girlfriend, it was too late and he had been transferred.

At the same church, I knew one elderly priest, who was so abusive in the confessional (I made previous reference to him) that in all Christian charity, I advised a few friends visiting the church, NOT to go to him for confession. When an older lady told me that he was a very Holy man, I told her that he was so Holy, that when I say "Good Morning Father" to him, he looks at me like I'am from another planet.

On the otherside of the coin, a woman confided to me, that her son was a repentent homosexual, and that when he confessed to struggling with temptation in that area, he was told by a priest at a very liberal parish, that homosexuality is not a sin.

Dear Andrew,

You have answered more eloquently much of what I had in mind to say!

I have found EXACTLY this at the Athonite monasteries under the GOA here....

However, this also varies, as parish priests usually do not adhere as strictly to canon penances (abstention from Holy Communion) as the more traditional monks. They grant ALOT more 'oikonomia' (dispensation).

Also, I like that at confession, the priest starts by asking about grave sins, thus getting that out of the way quickly.

I was unaware of the Eastern practice of excommunication from Communion for extended periods. In the Latin Rite( to my knowledge)the penitent is never told to abstain from Communion. I believe St John Cantius once gave a woman who had had an abortion 14 years of penance, which of course did not include abstaining from Holy Communion.

I certainly don't want to sound like I'am being anti-Eastern, because I can see the sense behind a short term excommunication from Communion, however I would have serious doubts about the effects of an extended period of excommunication.

Lawrence, excommunication is meant as a medicine to bring one to one's senses for the most serious offenses. The excommunications are not arbitrary, although ekonomia may be applied in administering them. All of this, i.e., sins which call for excommunication, is spelled out in the Holy Canons, which the Orthodox Church have never discarded. No one that I know would want to get excommunicated, and thus those I know avoid committing the sins that require the application of this kind of "penance."

OrthodoxEast

Lawrence, it did happen in the Western Church as well. St. Philippine Duchesne, a French nun that worked here in the central US in the mid-1800's wrote in her journals how her Jesuit spiritual director/confessor forbade her to go receive Communion many times and the great distress it caused her, as well as the scandal it gave the Sisters in her community. It may have been more of something that was common among those with a taint of Jansenism, but it did happen. Don

Of course, reception of Communion in the Latin Church was much less frequent in the 19th Century then now. Actually, it was more of a "scandal" to be seen going "too" much to Communion.

Dear Friends,

Just a note about the very developed Rite of Confession celebrated by Old Believers.

This is from the new site: http://oldorthodox.narod.ru

Under the article about bows and prostrations, there is a section on confession.

Basically, the Priest is there calling out various sins to the penitent.

When a sin that the Priest has recited was committed by the penitent, then, at that moment, he or she is to make a prostration to the ground before the Cross and the Gospel Book and then turn to the Priest-Confessor saying: "I have sinned, forgive me Reverend Father for the sake of Christ!"

BUT, if a sin that is read out by the Priest during confession has NOT been committed by the penitent, then he or she is to reply: "By the Grace of God I have been preserved from this sin!"

Afterwards, the penitent makes three more prostrations to the ground before the Cross and the Gospel with the Prayer of the Publican - and then he or she asks for a specific blessing from the Father Confessor to approach Holy Communion. The Priest may refuse to give it . . .

After this, the pentitent makes the Prayer of the Publican but with three bows to the waist only as he or she leaves the Priest.

As he or she makes such bows, the people nearby actually join in to salute the penitent by saying: "(Greetings) on your pure repentance!" ("S chystim pokayanyem").

Before Holy Communion, the Old Rite Priest will actually read a prayer of public absolution over those about to commune as well.

Finally, just a note to say that the Old Rite prescribes kissing the Cross, when it is a three Bar Cross, on the point of the upraised portion of the Foot-rest to signify our desire to be on Christ's Right Hand side and to be lifted up to Heaven with the Good Thief!

When approaching to kiss the Cross, one is to make the Old Believer hand configuration for making the Sign of the Cross (thumb and last two fingers joined, index finger extended and joined with the middle finger that is slightly bent down). And one is to do this with BOTH hands and then cross one's arms the right over the left over one's chest.

Also, when saying the Jesus Prayer in the Old Rite, the prayer rope or Lestovka is held in the left hand only.

According to the article on this site, the fingers of the left hand are held with the thumb and last two fingers brought together and the index and middle fingers extended, as one would do with the right hand in making the Sign of the Cross.

The prayer rope then rests on the middle finger and the left index finger is used to count the beads/steps! Those two fingers represent the Divine and Human Natures of Christ.

Amazing, no?

Alex

Slava Jesu Kristu,

I had the opportunity at one time to read a confession guide written in English and Slavonic. It may have been Old Rite but I do not remember. At any rate, the sins listed in the Slavonic were supposedly so grave they would not translate them into English for fear of scandal. This was an actuall footnote if I remember correctly.

Dmitri

Dear Dmitri,

Yes, I have that listing in Slavonic and it does include accusing oneself of sins such as homosexual acts ("lying in bed with another man") - and this by way of a general confession of one's sins!

I've never seen an English translation of that list, doubtless for the reasons you give.

Alex

Yes, those are the so-called "sins against nature" and were considered too grevious even to discuss in any language. Some of the older Slavonic confession guides even left those in Greek so as to not translate them into Slavonic...

Dear Diak,

I know the sins against nature thingy is an interesting topic.

But what did you think of my post on Old Believer confession practices?

Alex

Slava Jesu Kristu,

Personnaly, I like to idea of a guided confession. I am always suprised when I go over any good guide how really sinful I am. Although the practicality of the Old Rite system is questionable, the spirit is one of the best I have read. Using it as a guide is definitely on my list for the next time.

Dmitri

Dear All:

Allow my stupid self to jump in once again and re-phrase my earlier question.

It appears that most of y'all learned folk are in agreement that a guided confession is OK. In other words, a priest's gentle asking of questions to guide the one seeking absolution is fine - provided that this is within the general realm of where the penitant was going with his confession.

However, what if the priest's questions come, for lack of a better term, "out of left field." The penitant gets in, confesses, for example, that he didn't fulfill his Sunday obligation and that he frequently lost his temper, yelled at people, etc, etc. etc.

He's done. Then the ksiondz jumps in and asks him (let's assume he's a he) if he masturbates. No prior mention or suggestion of sex-related sins of any kind.

Is THIS right?

Yours,

kl

Slava Jesu Kristu,

I would say that is it right in that the Priest is responsible for the absolution he gives. As a penitant, I often forget that as the guide, the Priest may have to answer for the sins left unforgiven or on questionable ground. Perhaps the Spirit Himself guided the Priest to ask such a question. At least, this is how I see it.

Dmitri