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#71315 07/16/03 09:17 PM
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Dmitri:

"Slava Jesu Kristu,

I had the opportunity at one time to read a confession guide written in English and Slavonic. It may have been Old Rite but I do not remember. At any rate, the sins listed in the Slavonic were supposedly so grave they would not translate them into English for fear of scandal. This was an actuall footnote if I remember correctly.

Dmitri "

I have seen this too, but not in a guide for Confession. It is in the 2000 Erie Molitvennik twice: once in a prayer before Communion, and once after.

Adam

#71316 07/16/03 09:35 PM
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Alex, I like your Old Rite confession bit!!! Somebody has to stand up for the soglasie wink

#71317 07/17/03 09:49 AM
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Dear Dimitri:

Would the same spirit guide that priest to ask the same question of a 15 year old girl? PUH-LEEZE!

I guess I should leave everyone to talk about old rites and stuff.

Going back into lurk mode,

kl


kl

#71318 07/17/03 09:55 AM
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Slava Jesu Kristu,

With what kids are exposed to on TV and everywhere else, I really don't think age matters anymore.

Dmitri

#71319 07/17/03 10:17 AM
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Dear KL,

Don't get upset, please!

I mentioned the Old Rite confession rule as, what I consider to be, a good example of a confession using a predetermined guide.

I agree with you that some priests ask the most inappropriate things of penitents.

One priest of ours felt he was justified in asking teenagers the "M" question in confession since he believed that was the age period in which this was a big issue.

Confession in our Church should be limited to two forms that can exist side by side - the penitent confessing his or her own sins without suggestions from the priest and/or the priest using a guide in going over the commandments etc. as per the Old Rite.

Also, I don't believe there is anything wrong in expressing strong disagreement with the priest over inappropriate questioning during confession.

I've seen people simply leave the priest in the middle of a confession due to such nonsense.

It would depend on the situation. But it is high time for some of our priests to get some sensitivity training, if their "high and mighty" seminary education didn't provide it to them.

So don't be upset, we lowly laity don't control our priests and, if worse comes to worse, we should respond to BS (Byzantine Silliness) in the confessional as respectfully as we can.

Alex

#71320 07/17/03 11:19 AM
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I agree Alex. When I was in my teens I had a priest yell at me for something that really wasn't that big a deal and asking me inappropriate questions. I told another priest about it (my regular confessor) and he said I shouldn't have taken it, but gotten up and left the confessional. Luckily, I've have had an experience like that again. But things like that are why people avoid the Sacrament. I continued going, but many folks wouldn't. Don

#71321 07/17/03 11:37 AM
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Bless me a sinner, Father Don!

Yes, my wife had a bad experience and it completely turned her off confession - she hasn't been in several years.

Not that she's a great sinner, mind you smile . But she feels that an act of perfect contrition suffices.

(Things like her being cross with me are things I deserve anyway, according to her smile ).

Alex

#71322 07/21/03 09:56 AM
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I was wondering if you guys could help clarify a point of confusion regarding sin and confession in the Eastern Catholic/Orthodox tradition. I've been perusing through alot of Eastern Christian literature including one which is deepening my faith - Arch. Joseph Raya's "The Face of God," and in which I came across some salient points.

How should we look at salvation and confession given the absence of the categorisation of sins (mortal/venial) in traditional Byzantine theology?

Specifically:

1/ what is the Byzantine view of how a Christian can lose his salvation as opposed to the Roman belief that (the Roman understanding of) mortal sin must be forgiven in the Sacrament of Confession to prevent eternal loss? Consequently:

2/ When is the Sacrament of Confession "necessary"?

Many thanks and i look forward to your responses!

Sant
Byzantine Catholic in training. smile

#71323 07/21/03 10:16 AM
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Dear Sant,

Eastern church discipline recommends that we attend Confession during each of the four main fasting periods of the year (Great Fast, Dormition Fast, Peter and Paul's Fast and Nativity Fast).

Once a month is optimal, especially if one communes regularly.

In some Eastern Churches, it is customary to confess before each Holy Communion.

Although the East doesn't accept the terminology of "Mortal and venial sins," I think we all have a sense of "grave sin" when we've broken the commandments or the precepts of the Church (of which there are nine in the East) with full intent and deliberation.

The spirit of penance isn't confined solely to confession in the East either.

There is the constant Jesus Prayer and the various ascetical exercises, including the Psalms.

But to deliberately go agains the Will of God, even in what may be "materially" understood as a "small thing," is truly something that merits confession.

19th century atheists used to ridicule the idea that all of humanity fell from grace because of the "small matter" of Adam eating an apple . . .

But it was his intention of disobeying God that generated the sin - not the "weightiness" of the matter involved.

Alex

#71324 07/21/03 08:26 PM
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Dear Alex,

Thanks for your help!
There's a few points I'd appreciate if you could clarify.

Firstly, does the non-distinction between mortal/venial sin mean that any sin at all, if unrepented, can exclude one from God in the next life?

Secondly, on the basis of penance not being confined to Confession, I'm assuming Holy Communion can be received even if one has not had Confession for sins that are considered "mortal" by the Roman Church, so long as one is repentant. Is this correct?

Thirdly, what are the precepts of your Ukrainian Church, and are they the same for all Byzantine Churches?

I've actually been attending a Ukrainian Church over here for the past 5 months and have been having a fantastic experience. Sadly some Latinisation is present...it's disheartening when you're exposed to some of the very things you're trying to get away from.

Appreciate all your help!

Sant

#71325 07/22/03 10:58 AM
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Dear Sant,

Excellent questions! You really ARE serious about your faith and its practice! smile

First of all, the Eastern Church does indeed distinguish between the kind of sin that the West calls "mortal" and that can indeed exclude one from participation in the Life of God, in this world and the next - and the kind of "daily sins" that we all commit, i.e. the just man falling seven times daily.

It depends on circumstances as well. A person may be regularly committing a "small sin" and sees nothing wrong with "bending the rules a bit."

That kind of perpetual sinful habit CAN be seen as a more serious sin at another level - an actual act of the will to "pick and choose" which commandments to keep and which to ignore at one's whim.

And it can lead one into more serious sin - once the will is accustomed to the sin of pride.

We generally also tend to be blind about our own sinfulness and the role of the Confessor is also that of helping us see the wrong that we are not aware we are doing and come to a better appreciation of it so as to repent of it.

In the "Way of the Pilgrim," the Pilgrim goes to confession in the Pochaiv Monastery. He writes down all his sins, in the minutest detail.

He is then told by the Confessor that he ommitted to write down that he hates God and his neighbour, hates the scriptures etc.

At this, the Pilgrim is taken aback. How can he "hate God?"

He is told that if he truly loved God, he would be always thinking of Him and prayer would be sweetest thing to him. Instead, he rarely thinks of God and prayer is a "chore."

He hates his neighbour because if he loved him, then every good thing that would comes his way would make him happy. Instead, he grows jealous of his neighbour etc.

The Pilgrim then realized the overall direction in which his life was going and he realized the sinfulness to which he was prone, but was hitherto blinded to.

The point in confession is not to assess whether a sin is heavy or light - although murder and adultery are "up there" with respect to the former, to be sure! wink

It is to assess whether we are living close to God and are looking for opportunities to deepen our relationship with Him. Are we moving more towards Him daily, or away from Him?

Little sins can be a symptom of the latter, and so, they cover up a deeper moral issue.

Confession is ALWAYS necessary whenever we have committed a serious offence against the commandments of God and His Church. No other form of penance can replace the need for private confession to a priest in that case.

But confession doesn't remove our inclination toward sin and our "state of sinful rebellion."

This is why we must constantly be in the Jesus Prayer and acts of repentance and self-renewal.

The Catechism of St Peter Mohyla lists nine precepts of the Church:

1) Daily prayer, three times daily at a minimum. especially on Sundays and Feast Days, when we are to hear sermons etc. praying always.

2) Praying for all manner of people and interceding for them.

3) Keeping all the Church's Fasts.

4) Holy Communion at least during each of the four main fasts of the year - and more frequently, but at least once a year.

5) Respect and care for the clergy.

6) Observing the laws relating to marriage.

7) Not to read writings that contain outright heresy or question faith and morals.

8) Respect for all church property.

9) Support of charitable institutions.

Some of the Latinizations in our Church have become very deeply entrenched. It is best to tolerate them, if nothing else. wink

Even a very Eastern parish like mine has the May devotion to the Mother of God, but sings Paraclesis services during the weekdays and Akathists on the weekend.

Alex

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