www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Ukrainian Catholic Divine Liturgy

Dear Administrator,

I didn't even have you in mind when I wrote that stuff about bad manners . . .

(By the way, "Vyshorod" is a place just north of Kyiv and a long ways away from "Uzhorod" but I guess you had to have been there . . .).

I think the only two "sticking points" about terminology today is just "Kyiv" and "Ukraine."

Last week, a member of the legislator I used to work for heard the Speaker refer to "the Ukraine."

He immediately got up in his place and expounded on the man's error.

He then called me up and asked me if he had left anything out .

I think whatever one wishes to call potato dumplings is fine. I call them "dumplings" as the term recalls what happens to a human being's mid-section if too many are eaten . . .

I would rather we use proper English translations in terms of "dumplings" and the like - but marketers today prefer "pierogis" and what-not and that is all fine, they also belong to the Poles and other Slavs.

But "Kyiv" is the proper translation for the Ukrainian name for that city and not "Kiev" which is a translation from the Russian usage of "KUEB."

And it is "Ukraine" and not the colonial term "the Ukraine."

Both Russian terms underscore a colonial, imperialist ideology which Ukrainians are now formally free of.

Some geniuses defend "the Ukraine" on the basis of "Ukraine" meaning "borderland."

And nothing could be further from the truth.

"Okrayiny" means "borderland" but the "U" at the beginning, instead of the "O" is, as has been shown on the basis of historical usage, including the Ipatiiv Litopys (at six different intervals), a reference to a plot of land that has been "cut out" (ie. "Ukrayaty.).

And this refers to the ongoing struggles of the people of the steppes to "cut out" their own land from the invading, occupying forces of their history (histories of Maximovich (Volume 3),Kosarenko and Met. Ilarion Ohienko in his "Slovo o Polku Ihorevi").

This is how "Ukraine" and "Kyiv" are now officially accepted by the Ukrainian government and Ukrainian universities "across the pond and just north of the lake."

The Russian/Church Slavonic terms represent a repressive, colonial past.

As for other terms, as you yourself said, there is still a lot of work to be done with respect to these two terms.

You are not offensive to anyone, Sir, and when you exercise your prerogative to be firm with some people, you do so in accordance with your responsibilities as Administrator and as our internet Father in Christ.

Alex

This thread has certainly strayed off course...perhaps a new thread like "Kyiv or Chicken Kiev?" could be started.

Thanks Alex, I had been pondering that point (seriously, about a week ago) in regard to a posting I saw elsewhere on the net. My usually reliable atlases had failed me and I was going to ask. Now, the unfo (typo - but could become an acronym for Ukrainian info, I suppose) for free ... . What more could one ask?

(Took me years to get from pierogies to pirohi though; now, you're telling me that I have to realign my thinking to pyrohy? Or, I could restrict myself to buying them at Ruthenian and ACROD food fairs? )

Many years,

Neil

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
[QB] Dear Administrator,

This is how "Ukraine" and "Kyiv" are now officially accepted by the Ukrainian government and Ukrainian universities "across the pond and just north of the lake."
______________________________________________

Dear Administrator and Orthodox-Catholic,

You are both right and wrong.

Orthodox Catholic is correct in stating that the proper Ukrainian spelling is now used by the government. For example; the Ukrainian city name of 'Lviv' has replaced the Russian (Lvov), Polish (Lwow), and Austrian (Lemberg) on all maps and documents. The Ukrainian version 'Odesa' in the South of Ukraine has replaced the Russian 'Odessa'. Even the Russified city of 'Kharkiv' in eastern Ukraine no longer uses the Russian spelling of the name; 'Kharkov'. The Ukrainian spelling is used by governments, corporations, and international bodies. Eventually, people should become more adapted to them and you see them used more in the future.

You are both correct in stating that Kyiv is the one city which has had a hard time replacing it's Russian colonial name (Kiev). The reason is that most people either can't read Kyiv properly or just think that it is a missprint since they have been familiarized with the word from such things as "Chicken Kiev" (George Bush's pre-indi. speach). It probably should be spelled: Kiyiv. I think they tried that for a short time and I'm not sure why they got rid of it.

Orthodox-Catholic is right in stating that there should not be a THE in front of Ukraine. The reason is that Ukraine is not a united confederation or territory. For example:

(1) For a country (non-confederacy) you say:

Uganda
Uruguay

(2) For a territory you can say;

The Poconos
The Prairies

(3) For a confederacy or union you can say:

The United States
The United Emirates

Clearly Ukraine belongs in the first group (I wish she were in better company).

However, Orthodox-Catholic is wrong in stating that the government uses Ukraine. The Ukrainian government has realized old habits are hard to break and has started increasingly using the term UKRAINA (ie: Ukrainian for Ukraine). It's difficult to put a 'the' in front of Ukraina. :p Just look at all the recent postage stamps. I have also been told that next summer at the Olympic games in Greece, it will be Team Ukraina.

So why don't we go back to Kiyiv ??

My dear Hritziu (z kvasnym zubom),

(My father always called me that in jest - have you heard of it before and what does it really mean?)

"Ukrayina" is fine with me too!

We don't yet have a UGC Patriarchate, but we do have a boxing champion!!

Perhaps now Rome will take us seriously . . .

Alex

Dear Neil,

Yes, Vyshorod was where the relics of Sts Boris and Hlib were enshrined (but I understand they are now lost).

It was also where the icon "Our Lady of Vladimir" was formerly enshrined.

Ukies today call that icon "Our Lady of Vyshorod."

According to a researcher I once corresponded with at the University of Dayton's (excellent) Marian Library, that icon was originally called "Pirohotissa" or "Pyrohoschna" Mother of God, before which the pagan Prince Ihor prayed.

It was from Vyshorod that a couple on pilgrimage there were paddling on the river when their young son fell into the water and disappeared.

Arriving at Kyiv, they prayed before an icon of St Nicholas and the next morning they found their son sleeping on the altar before the icon.

The icon was drenched in water and so is called "St Nicholas the Drenched."

It is now back at St Sophia's Cathedral in Kyiv.

Alex

Dear Diak,

Those who are chicken of us Ukies should use "Kyiv" just to be on the safe side . . .

Alex

Dear Orthodox-Catholic,

In the summer of 1991 when the 'Pousht' (sp?) to overthow Mihail Gorbatchev occured in the Soviet Union I told everyone that Ukraine would declare it's independance within the year.

Most people pretty much ignored me and said that independance was at least a generation (20 years) away. My father said he didn't expect to see it happen in his lifetime. By the fall of that same year the people of Ukraine had not only declared their independance but they also confirmed it in a national referendum.

I now predict that the UGCC will have a Patriarchate by mid-2006. It may seem like a long time but that's only about 2 1/2 years away. If it happens sooner (than mid 2006) then my prediction is that it will within the next six months (ie: in mid May 2004).

You want to bet on my predictions ?

PS: I'm not familiar with the expression you mentioned. People call me a lot of things, including: Hritz, Hritzko, Hritsiu, Hrihorij, Greg, and Gregory.

Dear Hritziu,

I pray you are right!

We already HAVE a Patriarchate, though

We only await Rome waking up to the fact.

Alex

Regarding the Hymn of the Only-Begotten Son...

The Syriac Rite refers to it as the Antiphon of St. Severus and uses this hymn for its Gospel entrance procession.

Given that:

1. the Syriac Rite preceded and influenced the Byzantine Rite
2. the Three Antiphons of the Byzantine Rite were an independent preparatory office and had nothing to do with an entrance procession
3.the Trisagion was originally an entrance antiphon

I think it can be concluded the Hymn to the Only-Begotten is a processional hymn.

In the Syriac Rite the Only-Begotten directly procedes the Trisagion, in the Byzantine Rite it is seperated from the Trisagion by the Troparia. It would seem the Trisagion was the original entrance hymn and was later superceded in this role by the Only-Begotten. The Byzantine Rite found of adding but not subtracting, later prefixed this with the Three Antiphons and later still the Great Litany, as well as the Troparia in between the Only-Begotten and Trisagion.

To have the Little Entrance during the Only-Begotten, as the Ruthenian Metropolia does is certainly within reason and not without validation. Also in the Metropolia (at least the Archeparchy) the Third Antiphon is often suppressed in its entirety, just as the Second Antiphon is among the Ukrainians.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Christ is baptized! In the Jordan!

"Also in the Metropolia (at least the Archeparchy) the Third Antiphon is often suppressed in its entirety."

Not everywhere, and certainly not for much longer! <G>

(Prof.) J. Michael Thompson
Byzantine Catholic Seminary
Pittsburgh, PA

In a recording from the seminarians at Presov, the third antiphon and the entrance hymn are combined in a single musical piece with the latter attached as a final verse to the former.

Is there any broader precedent for this treatment?
I like the idea of using the Entrance hymn melody for the third antiphon verses and refrain.

Christ is baptized! In the Jordan!

On the Great Feasts of the Lord (Exaltation of the Cross, Christmas, Theophany, Palm Sunday, Pascha, Ascension, Pentecost, Transfiguration),
the Third Antiphon (in Galician and Rusyn practice) is sung in the Resurrection Tone of the Troparion of the feast, and the Troparion is the "refrain" of the Third Antiphon. The Entrance Hymn of the feast day is usually yet another psalm verse from the Psalm which provided the verses for the Third Antiphon, and its response is the singing, yet again, of the festal Troparion.

In the Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese, this is the way that the Third Antiphon is prescribed to be sung EVERY SUNDAY, according to the "Guide for Chanters and Choir Masters" published by the A.O.A. Where they get the Typikon authority for this emendation, I do not know.

(Prof.) J. Michael Thompson
Byzantine Catholic Seminary
Pittsburgh, PA

Dear Fr. Deacon Lance, I think the stretch from the Syrian liturgy is a bit far. Again, most Byzantine typikons in existance call for the Little Entrance at the Third Antiphon/ Beatitudes.

The Ordo Celebrationis assumes the Entrance takes place after the Third Antiphon/Beatitudes.

In the Sipovich pontifical sluzhebnik (17th century) the instructions are clear for the Bishop to remove his mitre and "attentively sing" until the end of the hymn. Suprasl (1716) has the bishop removing his mitre and standing until "and was incarnate", after which he was to sit. It is clear in both of these sluzehbniks that he is not processing nor are any other clergy at that time.

It is interesting that nearly all of the earlier Ruthenian sluzhebniks are (in this question at least) all relatively consistent in instructing for both pontifical and non-pontifical Liturgies that the Entrance begins with the Third Antiphon or the "Glory" if the Beatitudes w/troparia are taken.

The Old Rite sluzhebniks also follow this practice, and I have difficulty with a practice just sort of jumping out of the Syrian rite with the extant sluzhebniks before and after the Union, pre- and post-Nikonian, all indicating otherwise.

Even the "low mass" rubrics of the 1755 Pochaiv sluzhebnik have the priest at the center of the altar during the Only Begotten, bowing at "and was incarnate...".

It seems to me that the misplacing of the Entrance during the Only Begotten is much more recent and much simpler than ties to the Syrian Liturgy.

My own interpretation is the procession at the Only Begotten currently in use in the Metropolia is primarily the result of truncated antiphons, as for years only the first stanza of the first and second antiphons were taken before the Only Begotten, and with the third nearly suppressed as well, the only hymn long enough to make the Entrance at that part of the Liturgy was the Only-Begotten.

Just check out the 1965 Intereparchial (Passaic-Pittsburgh) Divine Liturgy pew books which were the mainstay of many parishes in the Metropolia for years. Shout Joyfully, Glory, Be Gracious, and then right into Only Begotten, with no Third Antiphon at all.

Twenty years ago every Ruthenian liturgy I attended used this truncated antiphon pattern which was promulgated in the 1965 Passaic/Pittsburgh Intereparchial pew books (still in use in some parishes). There simply is no other time to make an Entrance using this schema, which was a very common usage Metropolia-wide for many years.

Dear Prof. Thompson, some Greek typikons called for all of the Antiphons to be sung in the plagal of that week or of the feast. I assume the Antiochians are following suit, as Bishop (then Father) Basil in his Liturgikon promulgated for the entire Antiochian Archdiocese parallels the Greek typikons.