www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy News Regarding the New Translation of the Divine Liturgy

The moment you agree you ARE Ukrainian the union is set. It's the only way it is going to happen. You join them.

Unfortunately, this is not the first time I have heard this, and not only from Slovak Ruthenians, but also from Russian Orthodox. Whether true or not, union is unlikely for other reasons.

One reason that comes to mind is the difference in chant traditions. Greek Catholics who opted to go into the OCA eventually found their chant tradition suppressed in favor of Russian ones, which, I believe, was another reason the Carpatho-Rus Diocese was established rather than simply adding on to the OCA (an oversimplification, but still likely to be true).

There are traditions and customs worth preserving which will likely be lost forever in an outright merger. History tells this story over and over again. A liturgikon maybe, but a merger? Not likely.

Cathy, start with your pastor and Bishop. The more they hear from those in the pew, the better. It wouldn't hurt to include the Pro-Nuncio, but he will generally take a "hands off" approach to things Eastern when the church sui iuris has its own bishop(s).

You might be better off contacting the Congregation for the Eastern Churches and voice your concerns to them as well.
FDD

Jim, I have been to both Bulgarian and Romanian OCA parishes where the particular music was actually pretty well intact in both cases. There certainly is precedent of such things not only happening but working.

The ethnic reasons for the UGCC/BCC division are simply no longer present, and both now squander precious remaining and dwindling resources on largely empty seminaries and other physical plants.
FDD

Don't know what this has to do with translation problems, but the Greek-Catholics in Austria and Hungary had separate dioceses because Austria and Hungary were and are separate countries (at the time they had one sovereign, who was simultaneously Emperor of Austria and Apostolic King of Hungary).

Mike Ross writes: "Otce Hash, we have, all of us"! My word. Is the consumption of Otce Hash proper during Great Lent?

Incognitus

I have to admit - I was wondering if I was imagining that - thank you for confirming that my aging eyes were still working

I have to admit, the East is a lot more hip than I ever imagined...

Fr. Deacon Randolph,

I repeat here my post to the Admin:

I said I view those who would leave our Metropolia over the NT much like I view the SSPX, i.e. obssessed with rubrics and having things the way they think they should be, that is how I view them it is not a comparison.

To Fr. Deacon's remark I simply pointed out the SSPX wanted the same and look where they ended up. This was a warning, again not a direct comparison. How could it be? The NT hasn't been promulagted and nobody's left yet!

And obviously those who would end up leaving for the Ukrainian, Melkite, Romanian or Latin Church are not guilty of any sin. And while we don't hold the Orthodox to be in schism, a Catholic who leaves and joins the Orthodox with out a hierarch's blessing will at the very least be consider to be in an irregular situation.

If any comparison is to be made it is in attitudes I see displayed by both. I was in no way claiming those contemplating leaving are schismatic.

And I ask again:

However, you failed to answer my questions. How do we excuse those who simply stop going all together? What is the rational behind going to a Latin parish, which is a completely different tradition that employs some of the very things they claim to be leaving the Byzantine parish for like inclusive language and the priest's prayers aloud?

Those who want it their own way are those who are willing to leave if the NT is implemented. Whether they stop going all together, go Latin, go Ukrainian, go Orthodox, they are leaving their canonical Church over some minor rubrical and translational changes which they are going to get by switching anyway.

And the last time a checked the SSPX was still in existence and still in schism. What does the existence of the FSSP, ICK, or any group have to so with the fact that a group left and continues in schism over liturgical issues?

One can disagree with the NT without making excuses for those theatening to leave.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Diak, the chant traditions of the Ukrainians and the Ruthenians are different. As far as I know, Ukrainians don't routinely use prostopinije chant. Am I misinformed? Ukrainians in my parish come from a tradition of using Galician chant, which is different, simpler. A merger would eventually cause a push for commonality in chant. The two traditions would be put at odds with each other, and one would prevail, or something hybrid or new would result. That might not necessarily be bad, but it is worth pointing out for the sake of those who think they may be preserving something instead of changing things by a merger.

Can I ask the Bishop to join an Orthodox church?


So you are saying the NT is minor?

I think you are missing the bigger point. Why in the world are we even talking about Liturgical changes in the middle of a crisis?

Deacon Lance Wrote: "Those who want it their own way are those who are willing to leave if the NT is implemented. Whether they stop going all together, go Latin, go Ukrainian, go Orthodox, they are leaving their canonical Church over some minor rubrical and translational changes which they are going to get by switching anyway."

Tell me, Deacon Lance, what is minor about removing the rubrics pertaining to the Royal Doors? I'm guessing our Divine Lord would not find that minor. We just want what should have been enforced in the first place, which in most parishes never was, for some unspoken reason. Why all of a sudden is there a reason to start enforcing the NT? In fact in some posts, it's been pointed out that the NT may not be inforced at all, so why do it if we can ignore it? As Fr. Elias's parish proves, if enforcing the "OT," perhaps numbers would increase. In fact if enforcement of those "old" rubrics has never been tried, how are we to know if it will or will not work? I highly doubt that Fr. Elias's parish is an anomly. What do you think Fr. Elias, are your parishioners different from most Byzantine Catholics? Do you have more "cradle" BC's than most parishes?

Cathy

If Otce Hash is permitted any time during the Great Fast, is it ok every day, or just on weekends?

"Tell me, Deacon Lance, what is minor about removing the rubrics pertaining to the Royal Doors? I'm guessing our Divine Lord would not find that minor."

I am quite sure Our Lord could care less if there are doors at all and even less whether the Liturgy is celebrated with them open the whole time or opened and closed according to rubrics. The Rusyns as well as the Greeks have celebrated with the doors open for quite some time and this concession was even officially granted to us in the 40s. Now all of sudden this is a reason to leave our Church?

Fr. Deacon Lance

"Can I ask the Bishop to join an Orthodox church?"

You can ask, I wouldn't advise it, especially in Passaic.

"So you are saying the NT is minor?"

In my opinion, yes, and I state this while disagreeing with some of the changes.

"Why in the world are we even talking about Liturgical changes in the middle of a crisis?"

I have no say in the Liturgical changes, but I took a vow of obedience to my hierarch and I will obey what he promulgates in so far as I am able. I will certainly not encourage disobedience or leaving our Church.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Actually Fr. David already addressed this point. If one were to make a scientific study one would have to include other factors, the"complexus of reasons" - among them for example, the matter of "pastoral care" noted by Father David. From such a study one might be able to deduce the principal factors governing the behavior. On the hand, the procedure outlined by incognitus if flawed: it does not provide for a scientific study; it lends itself to conclusions tainted by post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.

What is the point of interest, exactly?