www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy News Regarding the New Translation of the Divine Liturgy

I tried Burger King in Singapore once and only because after dinning our of the various gastronic wonders offered there I had never had BK before. After just one bite I wished I had stayed with my original plan. If it was not for the strong flavoured sauces it was as interesting, as I am told cardboard is to taste. Never again!

I am very confused on the liturgical issue. The postings have been so very long and wondered all over the place. Is this new translation going to conform to the very best of liturgical practice? I saw all the comments about doors opening and shutting or in other places staying open etc.

ICXC
NIKA

Gary,

I agree with everything you wrote. My wife doesn't fully understand why I dislike the "modern" Catholic Mass so much. Maybe because I could never quite express exactly why it puts me off so much.

I used to feel guilty after attending Catholic Mass because I would leave church feeling as if I hadn't experienced nor witnessed anything mystical. I feel like there is a disconnect between what is happening at church now and what has happened through the centuries.

I could give you a whole list of things that cause me to feel this way but it all boils down to what you wrote about the focus of church being taken away from God and put on us as humans.

Paul

Just a thought Paul but have you ever attended where the Modern Mass was celebrated well?

I know from my own expereince that bad Liturgy is awful but I also know that when the missal is followed as written it is uplifting. It's the ones who keep trying to improve on the missal that are a pain.

I was up in the remote north west of Australia for about a year and too far from any of my own Byzantine churches and had to slum in at the Latins . Well was I in for a shock. The priests had been brought in from Africa by their order and I was left with the distict impression that standards around liturgy were extremely low over there.

I walked out one day, then I got got the "guilts" and went back to give them another chance but it was so very bad I never returned. I was fed up feeling so bad I could not go to communion and would leave feeling a bit depressed. They even stopped mass one day to hear confessions and that was it for me. However, I do know that the Novus Ordo can be done right. You may have to shop around to find where that is in your part of the world. The Byzantine Church is not just another way of "saying Mass" it is a total package and although it might tide you over in the short term it may be better to be an expert on where you can access what you need in your own Latin Rite. Take care of you!

ICXC
NIKA

Here is simply my 2 cents. There are necessary changes. These are changes to the liturgy that are required. These fall into a couple of categories:

1) The correction of errors

and

2) The additions to the liturgy that are needed. Examples of this might be:

The safety of those who travel by land, see,air my guess is that Air may not have been in the earliest texts, but this is an addition that has been appropriately added.

If by some chance in the next five year we have commercial space travel, we might add "in Space" or if in the unlikely event we discover transporters or teleporters, then the addition "By teleporters" could be added.

Then there are unnecessary changes to the liturgy. Like the addition of language that by its very nature doesn't belong in english i.e. inclusive language. Simply put it is the dumbing down of our language and something that the Church need not participate in because the very people who want this type of language despise the Church. They are the same people screaming about the "evil" patriarchy, and the same one screaming for the ordination of women.

Face it, we are not going to get the doors knocked off our Churches because we change the wording to our liturgy to be inclusive. We will have the doors knocked off our Churches by becoming more authentic and truer to our roots.

The question becomes which Eastern Churches are growing? I mean both Eastern Catholic and Orthodox? Then one must ask why they are growing? I would postulate that they haven't caved in to the world and are being traditional.

John Gibson

Another aside...

My wife, who has a degree in Linguistics from University of Illinois, thinks inclusive language says that she is too stupid to know that "for us men" doesn't include her.

By teleporters!!!

I love it!

-uc

John Scotus said:
"Oh, and by the way, Dormition in Akron is closed and St. Nicholas is a declining inner-city parish whose days are numbered, change Presanctified at a growing parish and see what you'd get. I bet the results would be much different."
I would suppose that evidence that replacement of the old Presanctified Liturgy is acceptable has to be suppressed in some way. Dormition was not closed for a lack of vitality. In fact, under Fr. Don Freude, who later became Orthodox, it was probably one of the more Eastern parishes of the Eparchy - even to the point of having a curtain on the Royal Doors. The people were very fond of thier Liturgy. It was not composed simply of older folk. It was closed because there were simply too many churches in the Akron area, and a lack of priests to supply them. Dormition was the smallest of the parishes and its natural territory overlapped St. Nicholas in Barberton. St. Nicholas in Cleveland is more clearly an aging parish. However, I rather think that a parish whose future is in doubt and composed of older people would be more resistent to change than a younger parish. As to whether a change would have a different result in another parish is completely your speculation, and you present no data. I believe the attitude and enthusiasm (or lack of it) is very important in the parish liturgical life.

Pavel,

When my wife and I were dating we went one Sunday to Mass at a Catholic church down the street from where I lived. I didn't particularly care for the service but I wasn't too surprised. My parents sent me to Catholic school from first to ninth grade (back in the 70s) thus I never experienced an Old Rite Mass.

Close to where we live now is another church that has a large Spanish-speaking congregation. I had never been to a Spanish Mass and I thought it would be a good experience (my wife is from Mexico). Now, I had this image of Mexicans as being very traditional Catholics so I thought I was going to experience some Old-World Mass. I was extremely disappointed.

This is what I mean by feeling guilty. We're not supposed to go to Mass and end up being disappointed!

After this I started to worry because I don't want my son (who was baptized Catholic) to think that this is how church is supposed to be. Fortunately, I was referred (by the good people here at the Forum) to St. John Cantius Church where I experienced for the first time in my life a traditional Latin Mass. The altar was facing forward, the service was in Latin, there were cantors and a real organ. It was like the Latin version of the Orthodox service I'm used to.

I feel better because now I know there is a church close by where my family can participate in a traditional Latin Mass. We also attend service at the Greek Orthodox church. My son is a year old but he knows to kiss the ikones and he eats the andithoron

Paul is that Church that has Mass in Latin using the pre Vatican II rite or the Post vaticna II rite? It sounds as if you had a preconcieved idea of Mexicans and their culture that was nowhere near the facts. Oh well you are the wiser now and no doubt the happer for your knowledge. Pleased to hear the little lad is able to take blessed bread. Hope he uses both hands you get more that way.

ICXC
NIKA

Dear Pavel Ivanovich,
You went to a Burger King - in Singapore, of all places? Oh, heresy! I shall rend my garments! Singapore offers food fit for the gods! (So does Hong Kong. Beijing, on the other hand . . .)
A friend sent me the Singapore recipe for buttered shrimp - I must try it once Pascha is upon us. I keep wondering why Singaporean restaurants don't seem to exist in the West.

Incognitus

I know (peccavi), I know. I will NEVER do it again. I was not my fault I was caught up and seduced by American propaganda and am a victim of um ah *frantic search around the room for inspiration here* My mum made me do it. phew *wipes brow*

I was there for 8 days and avoided all things western in terms of food. Singapore for those who dont know is a very multicultural city state. The different ethnic communities have their own restaurants and dinning is so good as Singapore has some of the highest standard of hygiene around food in the world. If you can't eat off the kitchen floor the place almost gets closed. Then one day in one of the many food halls I saw this corner and thought I have never had that and will try it. One mouthfull later I knew I had made a huge mistake. However, years of being stood over by my Mum when seriously considering throwing food away in my younger days saw me finish was was only to be described as horrible. I recommend singapore to anyone thinking of gong somewhere on one of those flight hotel deals. The place is so safe especially for women. Commit a crime there and you will wish you had not. They do give smack bottoms there and those who get one not only get marked for life but the memory of the pain is a great disensentive to a repeat performance. Back to food. Never again will I do BK again.Yuk!

Mind you finding a decent Hamburger in America was no easy thing either. After breaking the rule and throwing yukky burgers away all over the place it was in a Lori's in Union Square (right across the road from the Tenderloin District) just up from the YHA that I found the one and only decent hamburger of my sojourn in the land.

Must go to church.

ICXC
NIKA

Finding a decent hamburger in the USA is no problem whatever. Go to a reliable butcher (and don't ask how to find him!) and buy a half pound of round steak - and make the butcher grind it fresh, under your watchful eye. Take it home and cook and season it to your taste; then put it on some good bread with whatever condiments you like and enjoy it!

Singapore, incidentally, will cheerfully sentence foreign nationals to caning if the foreign national commits (on Singaporean territory)an offense for which caning is the prescribed penalty. They don't quite sell tickets, but recidivism is as rare as eyebrows on eggs!

Incognitus

Being an Australian tourist in your land, Taking meat home was not an option. Not the least of my problems was we went metric and off the Imperial weights and measures when I was still at school and a young Queen Elizabeth was on the coins. I was in the US of A land of hamburgers and expected so be able to get one easily. Mind you the burger I bought at Loris was cooked before my eyes and when I watch the cook clean the grill down with brick I knew it had potential to be good and it was.

Mind you I also learnt why sticking to the trail was so important to wagon trains going west during my stay at HRM. I had no idea the USA had some many deserts and barren mountain ranges. Certainly not the green grasslands of John Wayne fame. I was very impressed and hope to see more later.

ICXC
NIKA

I trust that there are also butchers in Australia.

Incognitus

Of course but one expects the land flowing with milk and hamburgers to have some burger worth eating. Another myth destroyed just like John Wayne's grass lands that are not.

ICXC
NIKA