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Kurt,

I thank you for at least making an effort an a helpful post. But...how do you know what the protestant method for selecting bishops is? Were you a Protestant of some sort in previous years? How do you know that it is different from or the same as the BC method?

Dan Lauffer

The newspapers have reported on the election of Episcopal and Methodist bishops, as well as the president of the United Church of Christ and the General Moderator and Stated Clerk of the Presbyterians.

PBS 'Religion & Ethics' news program has also had reports. I find R & E to be an excellent show. Are they inaccurate?

K.

P.S. I don't guess Unitarians 'count' as Protestants, but also I was sitting at the bar in the Cleveland airport last year and spoke with this woman who was campaign manager (my term, not hers) for a candidate for President of the Unitarian Universalists. In an ecumencial/interfaith effort, I paid for the drinks.

[ 01-14-2002: Message edited by: Kurt ]

NOw that's language that disagrees and yet shows respect and doesn't mock!

You're welcome.

Of course I see what you call the NO as a clearer presentation of Catholic beliefs.

Unless one had his or her formation with the Tridentine Mass and can read that meaning into the NO, one can go to the NO as practiced by Amchurch (important qualifier — not a swipe at the NO's content per se) all one's life and learn very little about the Catholic faith. After all, that Gallup poll showed only 30% even knew what Catholicism says the Eucharist is.

Aggiornamento was the phrase that Blessed Pope John XXIII used to describe the renewal that we need.

Which in practice turned into a cave-in to modernity — Modernism. Authentic reforms liturgically are things like making the minor orders real in the parishes again (men from the community in real ministry, not just a formalism for seminarians) and making the subdeacon holding the paten a functional ritual again — give him the Eucharist and send him out to commune people!

I recognize that at least they are working constructively within the Latin Church to shape the liturgy as they believe it should be

You're willing to patronize them because they seem willing to play by your rules.

Of course, I always regretted the total cessation of the celebration of the Tridentine Liturgy personally. I spent half of my life worshipping by participating in that Liturgy. There was much pain endured because of it.

Next to nobody demanded its abolition so Roman Catholics couldn't have been in so much "pain'. Even the LM simply wanted to make the most of it, not get rid of it.

But, perhaps those charged with the implementation phase of the renewal thought that in the long run it would cause less dissention in the Church and less pain to implement it gradually as they did with the transitional forms of liturgy that were done without constantly looking back. At least that was what I heard and was taught during those times of intense change.

If you put a frog in a pot and gradually turn up the heat...

http://oldworldrus.com

[ 01-14-2002: Message edited by: Serge ]

Dear Dan,

"Steve,
Why do you write such long posts? Just curious."

LOG! (Lots of Gas?) :rolleyes:

Seriously, I guess for a couple of reasons. I want to be sure to say what it is that I mean as clearly as possible .

I want to focus the words and express the reality I see behind the words as thoroughly and accurately as possible to cause less chance for miscommunication.

I really want to use words and write in a way which will try to convey to the person the respect that I hold them and the things that they hold dear in.

I taught English for a lot of years and I feel compelled to do it properly (not of course that others don't do it right or that my colleagues out there would agree that I do.) LOL

Whoops! Turning into another long one.

Perhaps this is shorter and more to the point. I know that you were a Methodist Minister as was my uncle. I assume that, like him, it took you much time and reflection and composing to develop what what it looked so easy to do when you delivered that sermon at the Worship Service on Sunday. I kinda feel that way about what I say here.

"I guess I'm trying to understand your barge. "

Welcome to the study. I've been doin it for nigh on to 60 years. Everytime I learn something new, I also learn that there is so much more that I don't know.

I'm in the same situation here. I'm tryin to learn about your barge and some others in the fleet and the big fleet that is so much like ours and so different!

I'm honored that you're taking the time. There's so much to learn bout both of our barges.

"Anyway, I guess as long as the Roman Church can dictate who are bishops are and when we can and cannot have married clergy...

I think I hear your longing to be of ministerial service in your new church. May it be so!

I can't speak authoritatively on this part of your posting. I can say that I can understand the feelings being expressed by many Eastern Christians who are members of your churches on several sides of the issue. It seems, from this barge, to be a tough issue to deal with. Hopefully the Admiral's staff will soon reach consensus with the Admiral and your traditional practice of ordaining married men will resume.

Your Hierarchs will have to deal with that one!

"I guess we can ask questions from time to time about your liturgy."

You don't have to be upset with the touchstone of unity to bring you to ask questions. Let me repeat:

Respectful commentary is always welcome! Open questions are always welcome! Disrespect and loaded questions are not welcome!

But!!!!!
This place is the Byzantine Forum. I really think that the focus should be on the Christianity of the East and Orient. It's a place for sharing among you and between you. It's one of the few places where we Latins can come to learn without in general being constantly bashed or belittled because we're heterodox.

This Forum is a GEM! It needs to be cared for!

From that perspective, I think that you might be able to understand my reaction when behavior like that happens here.

If something relative to the Latin Chruch comes up feel free. I'm sure that some Latin member or any of a number of Eastern Posters who have wide knowledge of our barge will answer.

All that I've been askin is for love in the words we use here.


"Do you consider that disrespectful?"

I hope that by now, you know the answer to that!


Steve
JOY!

Welcome to the Byzantine Catholic Church. Contrary to what some graecophile Latins or others may have told you, "Rome" does not dictate who our bishops are. Our bishops come forward not in a public selection that you might find normative from Protestant denominations or our American civil tradition. For reasons too complex to explore here, we Catholics do not use the Protestant method.

It is however, a broad, consultative process which includes laity, priests and bishops. The formal roles are for the bishops of the Metropolia and the Universal Pastor. Other important roles go to others. I myself have been part of this process in a past selection. having been part of this process, I can say a solid case can be made for its merits, without disputing those who would concurrently make a case for the Protestant method.

Another diss from the troll. First, Dan is treated like a Protestant who is ignorant of the reality of the Ruthenian Church, when in fact he has worshipped with the Ruthenians for quite some time, is a full-fledged member and knows the score regarding the reality of Ruthenians' relation to il Papa. "This is how we Catholics do it — you wouldn't understand', insinuates the troll. And again the "gr�cophile Latin' crack.

No wonder people leave the Catholic Church.

http://oldworldrus.com

[ 01-14-2002: Message edited by: Serge ]

Admirals run the fleet? That must be the Italian navy.

Everyone knows that the USN is run by the CPOs. They keep the fleet afloat.

Smooth sailing :p

Dear friends in Christ,

Sorry for the the thread drift, but...

I'm concerned about the lack of charity emerging in this thread as well as others I am reading. Although I'm a new poster to this forum, I used to lurk here years ago so I'm somewhat familiar with the type of discussion that goes on here. My memory of this forum is that it stood out for its civil discussions.

I think Steve's suggestion to present disagreements with each other in a polite and charitable way is a reasonable one. We shouldn't treat important issues with kid gloves, but we don't have to resort to ad hominem replies to get a point across. The fact that several posters find humor about their liturgy to be hurtful should be respected.

I've been a Byzantine Catholic all of my life. I've had insults and ignorant comments directed at me by both Orthodox and Roman Catholics. However, that does not justify my reciprocation of that behavior.

Therefore, I find this statement, as a Byzantine Catholic, to be troubling:
"No wonder people leave the Catholic Church."

In all things, charity.

In Christ,
Miriam

Therefore, I find this statement, as a Byzantine Catholic, to be troubling:
"No wonder people leave the Catholic Church."

In all things, charity.

Which actually was my point. I was not condoning people leaving the Catholic Church but simply stating that humanly it is very understandable when orthodox people of good will like Dan are treated shabbily by people like Kurt, or when Ruthenians in America were dissed by the Romans (both in the US and in the Vatican).

http://oldworldrus.com

[ 01-14-2002: Message edited by: Serge ]

Again, I would like to suggest that although we may disagree on the styles or forms of liturgy, that we always acknowledge their salvific role. And also not fall victim to the stereotyping that the Western Church is the safe refuge of the liberals, with pockets of 'right-wing' hyper traditionalists and the Eastern Church is the traditional bastion of the unchanging and immutable.

We're all just ordinary folks, doing our best. Let's try to remember that. And ensure that our posts are objective and not subjective. And, as noted above: in ALL things --Charity.

Blessings!

I have been told Rome has objected to the use of the word "minister' as in EEM or "pastoral minister'. It was supposed to stop because "minister' inplies the laying on of hands. But neither my friend nor I know the name of the document.

I thought there was something wrong with Amchurch's fondness for naming everybody a "minister' of something — it's both antisacerdotal and pushes the ordain-women agenda ( it's helped by the connotation "minister' also has in American culture of "clergy' ) — and this fact helps prove it. It seems the Vatican is hip to this word game.

There are lay "ministries' called apostolates, such as teaching, prolife, charity and media apostolates with books, the press, making websites and writing on Web fora. I dare say the number of people in traditionalist and conservative lay apostolates rivals Amchurch groups like Call to Action. This proves traditionalists and conservatives aren't clericalists (the liberals are*) — we Cathodox are sacerdotalists, believers in the sacramental (including taking part in Christ's Sacrifice), teaching, shepherding apostolic ministry of episkopoi, presbyteroi kai diakonoi, the first two sharing fully in the priesthood of Christ.

*Which is really why they want women priests — it's a power trip for some women, who don't really believe in the Cathodox priesthood or the Cathodox Eucharist. This is also a manifestation of Marxist class warfare applied to relations between men and women.

Serge
A voice from those embarrassing pockets of "right-wing' traditionalists including the Eastern Churches

P.S. Every time I use quotation marks within parentheses, the end punctuation turns into one of those winking smileys and I have to go back and edit. Really annoying.

http://oldworldrus.com

[ 01-15-2002: Message edited by: Serge ]

Thank you Dr. John, Steve, and Miriam for asking for the restoration of some civility here.

I was happy to be able to share my personal experiences with Dan to correct his misimpression that the "Roman Church can dictate who are [our]bishops". Hopefully, with that clarified, we who are Eastern Catholics can move on to other items and those who are outside our Communion can pursue whatever interests they have as well.

K.

Serge,

Which is really why they want women priests — it's a power trip for some women, who don't really believe in the Cathodox priesthood or the Cathodox Eucharist. This is also a manifestation of Marxist class warfare applied to relations between men and women.

I don't know about AmChurch as a model of what's happening. Maybe Steve has a point. In fact, there are many things I don't know about. In that Kurt may have a point.

There is this that I'm fairly clear about because I've seen in at work in Catholic retreats I've attended over the years and in the development of female clergy in Protestantism. It is indeed a manifestation of Marxist class warfare. They have borrowed the cliches and the mode of operation. I don't like it. I cringe when I see it. The usual name is "Liberation Theology".

Dan Lauffer

BTW I and others have brought up the point of laity distributing the elements to priests and bishops. Why is it allowed? It seems not only personally offensive but grossly inappropriate.

[ 01-15-2002: Message edited by: Dan Lauffer ]

Dan L. wrote: "BTW I and others have brought up the point of laity distributing the elements to priests and bishops. Why is it allowed? It seems not only personally offensive but grossly inappropriate."


Dan,

As I stated on another thread:

--------

"The Church has proven that to do the 'function' of a deacon(ess) one necessarily doesn't need the requirements as a layperson. It is also less expensive for a Church that is concerned about the costs. Lay ministry without any ordination or blessing is akin to cohabitation without marriage - Why buy the cow if you get the milk free? Read: Poor example of responsibility.

As a parallel to the Pauline Christ(groom)-Church(bride) model, how the Church works with its ministries is like the irresponsible male (=Church) who keeps his girlfriend (=unordained lay ministries) guessing whether there will be a wedding or engagement for that matter. The rule is "take em and then dump em" when you get bored or tired of their mouths and/or demands. There is a lack of recognition or ecclesial backing of these ministries. But the Church, and I don't mean to be critical in a nasty way, is run by celibate men. What can I say? One's value or church ministry should not be determined by whether one's 'function' or ministry is greater than the amount of effort and support they are willing to give in return."

------

In addition, the practice of extraordinary eucharistic ministers in our church is a quick-fix to a problem; the problem is longer communion lines and impatient priests who loathe their duties. The cry for deacons and/or EEMs seems to be for the sole purpose of making some clerics' lives easy. The average age of our priests is higher than it was three decades ago. When retirement is on the brain anything goes.

There is no long-term thought or planning when EEMs are allowed without education and ordination. They are allowed to play deacon or priest. Yet, thoughts of ordaining Minor Orders is out of the question. Go figure!

You're right, Dan, about layfolk communing bishops and priests — WACK.

Liberation theology is on the wane, thank God.

They are allowed to play deacon or priest. Yet, thoughts of ordaining Minor Orders is out of the question. Go figure!


Edwin, you've got it!

In addition, the practice of extraordinary eucharistic ministers in our church is a quick-fix to a problem; the problem is longer communion lines and impatient priests who loathe their duties.

And the bogus "renewal' that dried up vocations — and chased out some of the few orthodox ordinands who showed up.

http://oldworldrus.com

[ 01-15-2002: Message edited by: Serge ]

Serge wrote: "And the bogus "renewal' that dried up vocations — and chased out some of the few orthodox ordinands who showed up."


Serge,

Yup! That "renewal" or "Byzantine Renaissance" was a cafeteria-style approach to ecclesial metanoia. The enforcement of the ban on married priests has hurt us deeply and it is here that the people want to see changed. Who gives a flying *%&!@# about whether we tweak our liturgy once more with a change here and a change there? Byzantine Tradition is more than Liturgy. Liturgy has become the only thing we know. The changes there have been easy because it doesn't hurt or scandalize anyone outside our sui juris church. We've become infatuated with the script and the form.

[ 01-15-2002: Message edited by: Edwin ]