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Steve,

You are welcome. We all learn things as we go. When I first got on the net, for instance, I did not realize that typing IN ALL CAPS was considered yelling! :-0

Before this whole Roman issue came up, I always liked your posts. Serge is a close personal friend of mine, as well. I think you two have hit a serious roadblock and won't get any further by posting responses to one another, whether privately or publicly.

Hopefully, you can both stop posting one to the other, cool off, and in the future maybe even have fun on other issues.

Kurt and I used to go back and forth, but I just decided one day to let things stand where they stand and now Kurt and I get along just fine, even though I don't always agree with my Latinophile monoritualist Reaganophobe social-security-monographic friend!

anastasios

Dear Anastasios,

Yes, I thought you and Serge liked each other . . .

But I think I am to blame for Serge's ill humour with Steve as a result of my barbs at New Skete yesterday.

I've apologised to the Great Russian Sage and hopefully we can all return to "normal" here.

The next time you find an Orthodox Church posting icons of whoever, and knowing me, keep it to yourself!

Kidding, kidding...

Alex

Anastasios,

Thanks again.

I like this idea. But I do have one built in road block. Like you and Serge and Alex, I love my Church.

I am not and have not said that it can do no wrong or that differences of opinion about things should not be aired. I have asked only that all Chruches and Liturgies be talked about with respect and with no belittling of them. I don't think that that is too much to ask. I ask it for all Churches and Liturgies including yours and Serge's and Alex's.

Cooling off is good. But!!!!

I don't think that you or Serge or Alex or anyone else would or should tolerate the open mockery of your Churches or Liturgies such as have been posted in some postings here.

So I agree, talk, discuss, disagree. Don't talk in mocking and belittling ways. Discuss with frankness and help the others with which you discuss feel that no trap is being set for them. Disagree without the ad hominem and the belittling words and statements that have been made here. Just because a person disagrees doesn't make him or her the opposition. Respect!
Courtesy!

That is all I have been asking.

I am a lifelong member of the Latin Church and the Catholic Communion. Just as the administrator asked that the Pope not be bashed in another thread; I believe that it is proper to ask that our Liturgy or our Church not be bashed either.
I believe that it is proper to ask that posters not attack or belittle other posters or use inappropriate language here. No one should be abused verbally or mocked. Do you disagree with that?

I will not watch anyone, not even an Orthodox who is generally open to Catholicism or a Byzantine Catholic, misrepresent or mock or belittle my Church or its Liturgy or its practices without pointing out what took place and why I see a difficulty with it. I don't expect to be attacked for that. I don't expect a tag team to be organized because I do that.

I can't believe that you would do otherwise or that Serge would either or that Dan would either. Why are the rules different for Latin Catholics?

I have tried to treat Serge and Dan as I would like to be treated. I ask the same of them. In person, they are probably very nice people and good men. It seems that discussion of Latin Catholic Liturgical practices and attempts to balance their perceptions have lead them to behave in a way that I did not expect here.

So, I truly would like a cooling off period. I don't go looking for trouble, that is not my style. I won't be abused though or have the things that I hold closest to my heart mocked or belittled either.

I am here to stay! I hope that that does not make anyone else uncomfortable.

Steve
JOY!

[ 01-17-2002: Message edited by: Inawe ]

Dear Steve,

I'm O.K. with that!

You and Serge are two great reasons to participate in this Forum!

I even like Serge's beard.

Although I know that that is neither "hair" nor there . . .

Alex

That would actually not be me but my niece, who has the major hots for Ricky Martin!

K.

Dear Kurt,

You are an inspiration to us all.

I wish I had more of your appetite for intimacy with the opposite gender.

More sleep and vegetable juices I suppose . . .

Alex

Alex,

Oysters, man, oysters!

K.

Dear Kurt,

I'll go shopping on my way home tonight!

Alex

Contemporary "saints" nurtured in the Roman-rite (NO) Church.

www.nd.edu/~cwilber/cwh.html [nd.edu]

I bought a copy of the CCC today and it is...gulp!...a good read...a real good read.

Dr.John, if you are lurking in the shadows, I just want you to know that you are one hell of a good Greek...a true and loyal son of Hellas...Catholic or Orthodox, a Greek is a Greek by any other denomination. You are absolutely right: it is all about family.

Love ya, Doc.

[ 01-17-2002: Message edited by: Free Greek ]

Free Greek,

The link is dead.

http://oldworldrus.com

[ 01-17-2002: Message edited by: Serge ]

Alleluia! It's been resuscitated!

Free Greek,

Thanks. The Catholic Worker at least in the beginning (the 1930s, long before the NO) was an exciting, entirely small-o orthodox, 100% Catholic project to promote social justice. Founder Dorothy Day may have been fallible politically but I do not doubt her Catholicity.

http://oldworldrus.com

Dear Free Greek. Thanks for the kind words.

After re-reading this entire thread, something has jumped out at me. The entire complexity seems to evolve from different understandings of ecclesiology.

It exists in the very basic understanding of whether and/or how quickly change can occur in the Church.

It is clear that the Roman community saw the need for 'aggiornamento' back in the '60s and the Council gave its mandate to do so. The Council fathers clearly intended to transform the liturgical celebration into an 'understandable' and participatory event. Did the realization of this mandate lead to some very strange celebration? Indeed, no question. But did it achieve its intended goal of increasing congregational participation? Again, I think there is no question.

The same Council told the Eastern Churches to also investigate their legitimate traditions, to remove the 'latinizations' and other emendations regardless of their origins. We've been doing this, although not with the rapidity that occurred in the Roman community.

There are some who hold that the Church should 'hold fast' to its traditions and not make significant changes. The RC traditionalists fought strongly for this. NO changes at all was/is their motto.

Orthodoxy enjoys an ecclesiology that holds fast to 'tradition' as a touchstone. But, Orthodoxy also recognizes the need to change to meet circumstances. Environmental issues, population issues, divorce, immigration, etc. And also the need to 'retain' the members of the community by serving their needs. In a pluralistic society as we find in the US, Canada, Great Britain, Australia, and much of Western Europe, the issue of how people identify themselves is of critical importance to the way that the Church presents itself.

The Byzantine (Ruthenian) church in the US made the conscious decision to allow their people to identify primarily as Americans. The liturgy went to English, although some Slavonic is retained as 'flavor', especially at Pascha and some other feasts. And so the church moves on. As an American community. The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese is grappling with the problem of a majority of weddings with non-Greek spouses and the potential diversion/loss of members. The Jews have been dealing with the same issues. It's an attendant issue to pluralism.

I fear that if we insist on an ecclesiology that permits of no change to accommodate the real needs of the people, if we insist solely on "our traditional way" and traditional languages, our non-amendable hierarchial structures, our immutable roles and 'offices', then we will lose our peoples. And we surely fail in our mandate to bring the 'Good News' of salvation to all nations. We are a Church; we are in the business of bringing people to salvation. Not preserving our 'ecclesiology'.

Blessings!

Dr. John and others,

Given that our institutional future is linked at the present with the future of the Roman Catholic Church I wonder if it is alright to discuss matters that touch upon the practices which break with the spirit and nature of the Novus Order. I mean, if discomfert with a few married Greek Catholic clergy can set off an action that almost destroyed us, isn't conceivable that American Roman Catholic flirtation with lay Eucharistic ministers and female clergy have a negative effect upon our Church?

I believe that is the source of our concern. I have not read one post that has attacked the Novus Ordo. Now, if you want to invite some posters from our recent past who have not yet posted on this thread to post upon this thread, I'm confident that you would get some very negative commentary upon the NO.

It seems disingenuous to insinuate that Serge has attacked the Novus Ordo when he has only commented upon the abuses of it.

Dan Lauffer

Dear Free Greek,

Thanks for the link. Dorothy Day and the Catholic Worker movement model committment to Christ where He is to be found among us.

It is a great joy to find them again! What a gift!

Steve