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So then there is a desire that Orthodox Christians convert to Catholicism?

Andrew

OR...... they can bring you into Orthodoxy

Dear Andrew,

It seems there IS among these EC's!

And if it is up to me to defend the Orthodox here, then so be it!

Why I'm not Orthodox is beyond me - do you have any ideas why?

I didn't want to argue with Daniel. Anyone with five children has WAY too much energy for the likes of me!

Alex

We encourage them to enter into the fullness of apostolic communion, and while I know it is not the opinion of all, it is my oppinion that communion with the Apostolic See of Rome is absolutely necessary for the Church.
It does not make the Orthodox less a Church, they have Apostolic Sucession, the Sacraments, and a valid Episcopacy and Priesthood. They are however in a less that perfect communion with Rome.
Maybe we should look at some of the early texts of the Church and explore that more fully.
Stephanos I

Personally it doesn't bother me to know that the opinion here is that Orthodox Christians should convert to Catholicism. Better to understand on what terms we relate.

Andrew

We know what the Orthodox/Catholic position is as regard the official standpoint of what the Church is. I only hope that which ever way these people go they are properly prepared as they are protestants and not little Catholics or little Orthodox. Just because they might have vestments and ritual does not mean they are anything more than protestants who have taken on these things. The Orthodox were in Australia were for some time confused by the vestments and ritual here in Australia among the Anglicans. Some even put themselves under them for a short while until they were properly organised, to the Anglicans great delight. I known a number of Catholics who think that it is a fine line to cross into the Catholic church just because they see vestments and ritual.

ICXC
NIKA

Dear Alex you said:

"Also, I know Catholic school-teachers, who teach religion, who tell their students that Christ's miracles weren't really "miracles" and that they were misinterpreted etc.

Other Catholic teachers who appear to be teaching Hindu and New Age practices. I know because I've seen with my own eyes.

Are these also not "apostates" and right within the Catholic Church?"

I say:

I have found apostasy in some Orthodox 'Churches' (jurisdictions), and in some Orthodox 'churches' (individual churches within a jurisdiction). It seems which ever way the RCC goes, so goes the Orthodox...or at least some of the Orthodox.

I believe this 'apostasy' of some of the Orthodox churches is one of the reasons they want their own Patriarch in this country; and why the Patriarch, (who perceives them with the eye of an outsider), insists that they are not yet ready.

Zenovia

I have no problem with anyone converting to Orthodoxy. I know some who have converted in sincerity and are committed Christians. Unfortunately, I also know too many who are religious dabblers who might as well be Orthodox - they've been everything else. These seem mostly drawn to the local OCA and ACCA churches, for reasons I don't know. Local Greek Orthodoxy doesn't seem to attract these folks, for whatever reason. Maybe the Greeks aren't as likely to put up with them.

Zenovia

That's an incredibly serious charge, because apostasy is not simply holding heretical views, it is explicit rejection of Christ. It is something I would only apply for example to someone who leaves the church or denies the Holy Trinity. It is not a term I would throw around lightly either, and it is not a term I would use if I wasn�t willing to discuss the specifics of what I mean and who I was talking about.

Yes, perhaps for some that may be the case.

I�ll just refer to my comments above regarding this term. Unless you�re willing to back up what you�re with specifics, I wouldn�t throw around these type of vague accusations.

byzanTN

Becoming Orthodox is not an easy decision or one to be taken lightly. I think if the people you know are indeed simply �dabblers� then they will probably find themselves quickly disappointed and disillusioned. I don�t know what the ACCA is, but perhaps these people you know are attracted to the OCA because it is generally perceived as a moderate to liberal church (by Orthodox standards), that is generally receptive to converts and has many English speaking parishes. That is one possibility.

Why would these people you know not find a home in the GOA? It�s possible for the reasons you listed. Unfortunately I have a feeling it is more likely that it is because generally speaking the GOA has not been a jurisdiction that has been a first choice for non-Greek, English speaking converts. There are various reasons why that is the case.

Andrew

Dear Andrew,

I think that the charges or experiences of apostasy that Zenovia refers to or has experienced in Orthodoxy are nothing more than a sign of the times that leaves NO faith tradition immune.

I know of many situations which are scandalous, (and I will not be specific in my charges, and *neither* should any one else)but like every thing else in life, I know that there is always going to both good and bad. My personal philosophy has been to focus on my own spiritual life, to try not to judge others, to find a priest whose spirituality, traditionalism and commitment to the priesthood I feel comfortable with, and to take advantage of the beautiful avenues my faith offers to get closer to what Christ wants me to be.

I will agree that there is no point in scandalizing the faithful about sins of the Catholic OR Orthodox Church, for such only serves the evil one's intentions to tear it apart, and for souls to fall away.

I also believe that Orthodox should be as careful not to point out the sins of their Latin brothers as much as they are to be careful to not point out their own. Neither of us should be out to convert the other, as was agreed by the Ecumenical Patriarch and Pope JPII of blessed memory, in the Agreement of Balamand. What we should do, in my humble opinion, is care about others getting closer to our Lord, in whatever way.

The most awesome thing I ever heard about Pope JPII was that he told a Jewish friend and conducter in the Vatican to be a good and observant Jew, rather than trying to convert him. He rejoiced in his friend's new found faith in God.

This is what I believe that our collective and individual goal should be for each other as co- believers in the Apostolic Church.

In Christ,
Alice

Dear Friends,

I make this post after serious reflection and prayer as an Eastern Catholic in communion with Rome.

I would like to ask the Administrator himself to respond to this thread and to the views expressed herein with respect to our Orthodox Christian brothers and sisters that seems to cast them in a light that makes them "almost O.K." from our Catholic point of view.

My view is that the Orthodox Church has the fullness of the Faith, Sacraments, Apostolic Succession and everything else and that the rupture between our Churches is one that can only be dealt with in a future Council held voluntarily between our Churches.

And also that the lack of the Papacy in the Orthodox East in no way diminishes them from the Catholic POV as Apostolic Christians and as the Body of Christ.

For my part, I reject the notion that we Catholics accept the Orthodox as "potential Catholics" who should be urged to "make that final step" and come into union with Rome (which, under present circumstances, really means "under Rome.").

Let's remember that this was formerly the attitude, and for many years, of the RC Church toward Eastern Catholics where the fact they were still practicing their "Eastern Rites" meant they were no yet fully "Catholic" (read: Latin).

Again, with all the problems we EC's have had and are having with Rome, WHY would we wish that on our Orthodox Christian brothers and sisters to begin with?

And why do we insist on making our Orthodox colleagues uneasy, who come here and post in an atmosphere of mutual acceptance etc. only to have this atmosphere poisoned by this matter?

Anyway, I call on the Administrator, when he has the time, to address this issue here for the edification of us all.

Glory be to Jesus Christ!

Alex

Alice, I�m sure we all do. Personally however I feel like if you can�t talk openly about something, it�s best not to bring it up. That is just me and not a criticism of Zenovia.

I disagree with many of the other things you mention (which I�m guessing would not surprise you), but I don�t think the points you raise are a good idea to debate here.

Andrew

Dear Alex,

Thanks for your support!

However, you will note here that the feeling that one side is somehow more true and will get you to heaven and salvation goes both ways.

Too bad St. Ephraim the Syrian isn't here to admonish all with his famous prayer which has become customary to say during Lent:

For our spiritual edification, I will post it:

O Lord and Master of my life, take from me the spirit of sloth, despondency, lust for power and idle talk.
(Prostration)

But grant unto me, Thy servant, a spirit of chastity, humility, patience and love.
(Prostration)

Yea, O Lord and King, grant me to see mine own faults and not to judge my brothers and sisters. For blessed art Thou unto ages of ages. Amen.
(Prostration)

O God, cleanse Thou me a sinner (12 times, with as many bows, and then again the whole prayer from the beginning throughout, and after that one great prostration)

With the spiritual crisis and moral abominations which face both RomanCatholic Europe and Orthodox countries such as Greece and Russia, let's pray for each other's people to find Christ and to join forces in HIS name to battle Satan in modern culture.

(Andrew: I hope that we can atleast agree on this point. )

In Christ,
Alice

Dear Alice,

I believe that when we finally become One Church in God's good time, people will ask our Lord at the Second Coming "Lord, now who was REALLY right all those years when we were separated from each other as a Church?"

I believe He will say, "No comment!"



And never mind about Andrew . . . you have me. . .

Alex

Indeed, Alex, indeed!

In Christ's love,
Alice