www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Is the soul infused or generated?

Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ's Light,

I would like to re-submit this question to you all in the form of a poll. I can only wonder about the lack of response (besides the helpful comments by Dr. John) to my first post that people are either too busy to comment, not interested, or just unfamiliar with the question.

I admit it is a rather obscure question which took me by surprise when I first heard it. But its one I'm very interested in learning more about. So far we have 1 vote by the venerable Orthodox theologian Fr. Thomas Hopko for the soul being generated and we have one vote by Dr. John for the soul being created and infused.

So here's the question again. Please place a vote in accord with your understanding of the question (and perhaps give a comment explaining your reasons why you voted this way. (Not that this question is up to popular vote, but it will at least give us an idea of how Eastern Christians view and understand this topic).

original post:

I've just finished the series "God and Gender?" by Orthodox Father Thomas Hopko and have really enjoyed it. Alot of things were familiar being acquainted with several of Fr. Hopko's tape series and yet there were many new things I also learned from him. For instance: the belief in what the Latins call "Traducianism." I was very surprised he endorsed it. I've considered it before, finding it to be a very interesting concept. (Actually I am becoming rather partial to it mainly based on Fr. Hopko's insights).

I have heard that historically this was also the dominant view of all the Eastern Churches (including my Armenian Church). Fr. Hopko affirmed that most Eastern Fathers taught this also. Does anyone have any information regarding this?

Here's a link to a very informitive article although coming from a slanted Roman Catholic source: The (Old) Catholic Encyclopedia.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15014a.htm

Take away the apparent Latin Church bias, and I think this demonstrates that this could indeed be the authentic Eastern view as Fr. Hopko stated.

I guess another way to term the doctrine (perhaps more Eastern in terminology) would be "Generationism" as opposed to "Creationism" referring to the origin of the human soul. Is the soul immediately created and infused in us at our conception by God (as Roman Catholics clearly teach). Or, is it generated from the parents as an integral part of the humanity they pass on to their children?

Trusting in Christ's Light,

Wm. Der-Ghazarian

Is the soul infused or generated? single choice
	I believe the soul is generated from the parents
	I believe the soul is created and infused by God
Votes accepted starting: 12/31/69 08:00 PM You must vote before you can view the results of this poll.

To get the ball rolling, I voted for "Generationism" for the reasons given by Fr. Hopko in the tape series, "God and Gender."

In Chirst's Light,
Der-Ghazarian

Dear Der...

What are the reasons Fr. Hopko gives for generationism?

John

Dear Petrus,

Now I'm under the gun here. I've never really tried to formulate this for public scrutiny, so I know I'll probably fail miserably but here goes, anyways:

Reasons for belief in Generationism,

1. I think one of the main reasons is Patristical support by many early Fathers and most Eastern Fathers who taught on the issue. "Saint Jerome (Epist. cxxvi, 1) [wrote] that 'the majority of Oriental writers think that, as the body is born of the body, so the soul is born of the soul'." "Saint Gregory of Nyssa, Macarius, Rufinus, Nemesius, although their views on this point are not always clear, seem to prefer Generationism." -Catholic Encyclopedia. In the West, Tertullian and St. Augustine advocated this belief showing it was not just an Eastern belief. It wasn't until the rise of Latin Scholasticism that the West rejected Generationism in favor of Creationism.

2. I'm going to stop there. This above witness of Fathers was at least enough to get my attention to consider this doctrine. I'd encourage anyone who wants to seriously consider this subject to listen to Fr. Hopko's lectures on "Sin: Primordial, Generational and Personal" and "God and Gender." Short of doing this, I'm going to re-listen to them myself and take notes so that I can give some of the reasons he gives for belief in Generationism (besides fidelity to Eastern Tradition). I'll check back in a week or so.

In Christ's Light,

Wm. Der-Ghazarian

p.s. I could give some reasons now but I'm afraid I'll botch them up trying to formulate them for the first time. Your patience is appreciated.

Dear Friends,

Well, this is a lame duck topic if I ever saw one. Again, I am very surprised that virtually no one on this forum really has an opinion on this or cares to address it. Anyways, I'll attept to answer the question by Petrus. I haven't had the time to do a "formal presentation" or anything of the like. But, I've been thinking about it a little and I believe I can give the basic answer to his question.

Fr. Hopko teaches what I mentioned above, namely that we not only receive our physical bodies from our parents but our entire human existence, Body Soul and Spirit, in connection with his presentation of the Eastern Church's faith and understanding of the Ancestral Sin.

He affirms that he believes it has always been the authentic Eastern Christian belief that the humanity we receive from them is not just damaged "physically" or bodily. Rather we have the potential of being effected by the Ancestral Sin in every possible way which pertains to our humanity. These effects passed on from our forefathers obviously can be things like diseases, genetic malformities, chemical imbalences, chemical dependencies, and addictions. But the Ancestral Sin can also effect us spiritually and psychologically by things like a strong inclination to lust, homosexual attraction, a violent temper (the list can go on and on), and just a strong general inclination to sin.

Yet our parents and forefathers can also pass on a better humanity to us. Fr. Hopko gives the example of the many families which were blessed with several saints in them as a result this happening. The most classic and greatest example of this, which Fr. Hopko gives, is St. Anna and Joakim who passed on a holy humanity to their child St. Mary the Theotokos.

Now allow me to speculate on why Fr. Hopko affirms Generationism in the context of the Ancestral Sin (since he himself does not spell it out).

Since we inherit this Ancestral Sin which affects us in the entirety of our humanity, it follows that we recieve our entire humanity from our parents from whence the Ancestral Sin is passed on.

I guess it could be argued that if each of our souls are directly created by God and we receive them with the effect of the Ancestral Sin on them, then it could be said that it is God who is passing the Ancestral Sin on to us rather than our parents. And this would be heresy because:

1. God is All-Holy.
2. Nothing unclean or sinfull dwells with Him.
3. Everything He creates is good.

So, I hope this at least gives you a little more background of the context of Fr. Hopko's teaching. I'd appreciate anyone's insight or comments on this. Or perhaps more people will be at least interested in voting now. Anyways, thanks for your time.

In Christ's Light,

Wm. DerGhazarian

I believe that humans are the spirits made flesh. Just the same way as Jesus is God made flesh. But the question would be...which is first? Chicken or Eggs? So I would say that this question also applies to humans. But I would think that humans are created and infused by God at the same time.

But we do know for a fact that GOD Himself created us through the procreational love of our human parents.

I don't believe that there are "spirits out there waiting to be made flesh" but I do believe that God already have each one of us in His mind before we were ever conceived...He already KNEW us before we are ever form as if we already existed before we are ever formed! Heh..sounds complicated. But it's not if God is ever present and He IS ever present. I guess it's something that our human feeble minds can never comprehend while we are on earth...but maybe we will in after life.

That is pretty much exactly why abortions should be banned, is because in the moment of our conception...we are WHO we are made by God Himself and people tend to be too selfish to even see that! We are human beings in the moment of conception/infusion/creation/whateveryouwannacallit.

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

I voted the soul in created by God and infused by God. I have nothing much to base this on except this is what I was taught for 8 years at Catholic school. Also, I feel that if we are created in the "image and likeness" of God, then our souls could not be created from our parents. To think that our souls are created from our parents somehow takes away from the bond we should have with our Heavenly Father. I'm no theologian, but the touch of God is what makes each life sacred.
denise

Dear SPDundas,

Thanks for your comments. I can appreciate much of what you said especially in your third and forth paragraph. Amen!

Dear Denise,

Allow me to make a few replies to your thoughtful post.

you said:
I voted the soul in created by God and infused by God. I have nothing much to base this on except this is what I was taught for 8 years at Catholic school.

reply:
Remember, I understand the Latin position. The purpose for this thread was my hope that some of the experts on Eastern Christianity would be able to say "yes" or "no" whether or not this is the authentic Eastern Tradition as the vernerable Fr. Hopko affirms. So far, no one has commented from the perspective of the Eastern Tradition. No qoutes from Fathers, Councils, or even modern day Eastern writers. This must be a more obscure topic than I originally thought.

you said:
Also, I feel that if we are created in the "image and likeness" of God, then our souls could not be created from our parents.

reply:
Allow me to remind everyone that the belief is called "Generationism." Its not that our souls are "created from our parents" at all. The best comparison is to look at the other creatures of this world. They all receive everything they have from their parents. In the beginning God created everything. We all now pro-create. So, humans are still in the image an likeness of God because God created our first parents and they pass on that same humanity which was created in the image and likeness of God.

you said:
To think that our souls are created from our parents somehow takes away from the bond we should have with our Heavenly Father. I'm no theologian, but the touch of God is what makes each life sacred. -denise

reply:
As I alluded to in the above paragraph, I can't see how this diminishes in any way our relationship with God. All life is from Him, and certainly nothing is pro-created without his knowledge and consent. The body, soul and spirit we receive from our parents (if we follow belief in Generationism) is still just as sacred because we are still His special creatures.

Finally, let me say that I really appreciate you giving your understanding of this topic. Unfortunately, no one steeped in the Eastern Tradition is contributing to this thread so it doesn't look like I'll get the easy answer I was looking for. I guess I'll have to continue digging untill I can get an answer that somehow satisfies the question I have.

Thanks again for your time, comments and trying to help me out, Denise. Thanks also for the private message you sent me.

In Christ's Light,

Wm. Der-Ghazarian

Infused!
Stephanos I

Thanks Stephanos I. Could you give me your authority from Eastern Christianity which you are going by. I'm struggling to find one.

In Christ's Light,

Ghazar

Attention:

Calling all Orthodox Christians to reply to this post. Apparently, Eastern Catholics are not familiar with this question. Surely I can depend on you Orthodox to enlighten us. I'm requesting that you all teach us the faith of your Churches regarding this doctrine.

We have Coptic, Ethiopian, Syrian (i.e. Oriental Orthodox) members of this forum. We also have members of the various Eastern Orthodox Churches as well. Surely some of you Orthodox have come across this topic and are familiar with it. Please lend us a hand in gaining greater insights into this question.

Trusting in Christ's Light,

Wm. Der-Ghazarian

I wish some Orthodox Christians would respond too! This question has dogged me for awhile now. I'm not sure which side I take...but I voted "infused" because that is what they always taught me.

A scripture that might support Generationism is Hebrews 7:9-10: "One might even say that Levi himself, who recieves tithes, was tithed through Abraham, for he was still in his father's loins when Mechizadek met him."

This seems to say that Levi existed within Abraham and that his soul didn't come into being at some later time. This seems like Generationism to me. What do you think?

Adam

"A scripture that might support Generationism is Hebrews 7:9-10: 'One might even say that Levi himself, who recieves tithes, was tithed through Abraham, for he was still in his father's loins when Mechizadek met him.'" -Theosis

Dear Theosis,

This is a very good verse to consider. I think many others like it could be gathered. There's also statements by the Fathers like the one made by St. John of Damascus in regards to the Theotokos:

"O most blessed loins of Joachim from which came forth a spotless seed! O glorious womb of Anne in which a most holy offspring grew" (Homily I in Nativ. c. A.D. 749).

This coincides perfectly with the imagery in the Hebrews passage you quoted. Infact it would be interesting to not only see the Biblical evidence for this doctrine but also to consider how the whole ancient Mediterranean World understood the propagation of the Human Race. If anyone knows of any writings by the Fathers touching this, let me know. I'll start looking at the Biblical evidence and I know of one book which briefly treats on the ancient understanding of procreation. Thanks for your work and I'll get back with you when I find something worthwhile.

In Christ's Light,

Ghazar

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Glory to Him Forever!

I found a little information on how the Orthodox view the origin of the soul. The website I found is: http://home.it.net.au/~jgrapsas/pages/abortion2.htm

In this web page it says that the church has never defined the origin of the soul only denying Oreign's pre-existence theory.

This might be why it is hard to find a good answer.

Hope this helped !

Adam

Theosis,

Thanks. This helps to shed some light on the topic.