www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Is the soul infused or generated?

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Glory to Him Forever!

How about the idea that God infuses the soul at conception, but creates the soul from the parents. Would this be a good combination of the two views?

Adam

Dear Adam,

Actually, if one holds the Generationism view, I would think they would affirm that whether speaking of our bodies coming from our parents or our souls coming from our parents, all this is done through God's power.

Dear Friends,

A while back while discussing the dying of the Theotokos, Adrew J. Rubis wrote:

"In your point #2 you mention that separation of body and soul results in death.

I urge you to consider the scriptural testimony (especially the Valley of the Bones in Ezekiel and the Psalms) on this point. I contend that the following equation holds true:

body (sarxos) + spirit/breath (pnevma) = life/soul (psixhi)"

I've been looking into this, along with attempting to gain a deeper understanding of the Eastern understanding of Original Sin, as well as the topic of this thread, namely the origins of the soul.

Well I have come across a very eye-opening document which I would like to share with all of you. It gets kind of deep in terminology (at least it was for me) in the middle but I cross-referrenced it with the notes of the Orthodox Study Bible and Strong's Greek Concordance and the results were very beneficial in helping me to see many new things about Original Sin and our existence as human beings in the Eastern perspective. I just had to post it as a conclusion to this thread from a while back. I hope some of you get as much out of this as I have been getting.

IN Christ's Light,

Wm. Der-Ghazarian Wolfe

Link: ORIGINAL SIN ACCORDING TO ST. PAUL
John S. Romanides

http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/frjr_sin.htm

Friends,

I think one must also remember that the Eastern view has also always been that man is tripartite: body, soul/mind, spirit. Proceeding form this understanding the generative view only makes sense, yet both body and soul need the spirit which is the Gift of God alone. In this context spirit equals life, thus the heavy connotations of the Holy Spirit as the Life-giver. Generationism only becomes problematic if viewed through the Western lense of man as bipartite: body and soul.

In Christ,
Lance

Dear Lance,

Now that's the spirit!

Did you have a chance to read my akathist to St Theodore Romzha?

Alex

Doggone you Lance!!! Why didn't you tell me this four months ago when I was begging someone to help me with this? Just kidding. Your words do ring very true. Actually, I probably would not have appreciated them before I read the above mentioned article.

You are right, brother: I was asking the wrong question because it was based on a dualistic notion of man which is foreign to the Eastern understanding. Thanks for re-affirming this truth. You summed up 26 pages with one succinct paragraph. Thank you.

In Christ's Light,

Wm.

p.s. Perhaps the Lord, the Giver of Life, meant for me to find this out the hard way through sweat, hard work and research. I need to be more willing to accept these light afflictions and chastenings.

By the way, if you know of any more good discussions of the Eastern understanding of man, please let me know of them whether they be in books, tapes or on the internet.

Thanks again

Dear Ghazar,

I admit to not reading the article and apologize for not contributing here sooner, especially after all of the help you were to me in other discussions.

Sticking to my equation....and the "perishability" of the soul, I'm not sure how to speak of it as either infused or generated, although if forced to choose/vote, I'd go with generated.

Certainly, we are products of God's creative and man's procreative efforts, including the sins of our fathers for several generations, but that is where I keep hanging my hat....that we don't "have" our souls, but rather, we "are" our souls. God can say "I am" and put a period after it. If we dare to, we may say "I am for a short while."

All of this forces us not believe that we have a secured, certified baptized & chrismated soul floating around somewhere after our deaths, but that God will return at the Resurrection, remember us/our souls, and cause us/our souls "to be" once again!

With love in Christ.

Dear Ghazar,

The text by Romanides is truely awesome! Thanks.

In Christ.

We oftentimes forget that theology bases its methodology on philosophy, the "queen of the sciences".

Philosophically, the whole concept of "being" is derived from our good buddy Aristotle. (with existential footnotes from Thomas of Aquin).

In scholastic (Western) philosophy/theology, being is defined as one, good, true and universal. (In seminary, we had to demonstrate this using basic logic. Couldn't do it now to save my soul, but perhaps after enough Ouzo,....)

But what I do remember is that any "being" becomes a "being" when its existence is empirically verifiable (see, hear, smell, touch, taste,...). When we are able to recognize a being as an entity, then we are able to affirm its "existence", i.e., its "being-ness". Thus, medical science has done us a great service in showing clearly that cells from Dad enter the egg/cell-complex from Mom and something COMPLETELY NEW comes into existence, then we affirm that there is a "new being" in our cosmos. If, as postulated, every human being is "in possession of a soul" (how I HATE that phrase!!), then perforce of the cellular mitosis, a new being is in existence, and perforce of its humanity, it has a "soul". [Don't even THINK about asking for a definition of a soul!! That's when the theological sparks fly!!]

Personally, I prefer to think of the whole process as being akin to popcorn. The soul comes into existence when the "being" is created from the raw materials and the 'heat' generated by the loving passions of the parents-to-be. We weren't created; nor were our souls! We were popped!!! (Lordy, I can hear the 0.38s being loaded right now!!)

Blessings, y'all!!

Dr. John,

No need to get a bullet proof vest, I think I can live with the notion that I was "popped" from my parents.

Dear Andrew,

I really appreciate your help on this. There is only one sticking point for me when speaking of the soul as "perishable." The note on "soul" in the Orthodox Study Bible says the following: "...The soul of a man will never die." Then it offers this verse Mt. 10:28. What do you think about this?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him Forever!

I like the recent posts on this topic . I've heard the body, soul, and spirit view of man before. But why is it that the Orthodox Study Bible and several great writers of the Orthodox Catholic East just say "body and soul"?

Adam

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him Forever!

I like the recent posts on this topic . I've heard the body, soul, and spirit view of man before. But why is it that the Orthodox Study Bible and several great writers of the Orthodox Catholic East just say "body and soul"?

Adam

Dear Theosis,

Let me share a telling story about "the Orthodox Study Bible." Besides being improperly titled (it should be Orthodox Study of New Testament and Psalms), the commentaries are more or less the opinion of a few people who were recent converts to Orthodoxy. What is misleading is the extensive and impressive list of long-time Orthodox clergy and theologians who supposedly "reviewed it." Therein is the story.

A friend of mine showed me his father's name on the list of reviewers. His father was a long-time priest at a very large Orthodox Cathedral in North America. He said that his father received his "review copy" the day AFTER the book was available for purchase in book stores.

It would not surprise me if other reviewers would have similar stories.

In Christ.