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There are cases where Orthodox holy men and women will either sing Paschal hymns prior to their death or will request that "Christ is risen" be sung at their funeral, with no regard for the liturgical time of year.

An example of the former case would be St. Seraphim of Sarov, who was heard singing the hymns of Pascha on the night before his death in January. An example of the latter would be the Gerontissa/Eldress Gavrilia [oramaworld.com] who requested that "Christos anesti" be sung at her funeral no matter when she died; her funeral was during Great Lent, and the clergy still obliged her request.

So, even if we Orthodox have not celebrated Pascha yet, we can still share in the Paschal joy of the Papal funeral.

Christ is ALWAYS risen!

Dave

jpo:

Could I imagine it? Of course. But it would take cooperation from the Orthodox. Given the degree and source of protests about the trips to Ukraine, Greece, Russia, etc., it is also easy to imagine that he would not be welcome and not invited.

Of course, they were MUCH better in the period 1300-1650 or so... that's when they could name such lights as Josquin Desprez, Orlando di Lasso, Gregorio Allegri and suchlike among their staff, not to mention all the fabulous castrati.

Ed - I'm sure you are correct about that period but and it's a BIG BUT I think you will have some difficulty finding the castrati now

BTW - I think it's time for a new Avatar - it's nothing like you and may well frighten some folk off

Anhelyna

Anhelyna,

It's not a question of FINDING them, so much as MAKING them...

Gaudior, cringing at the thought

ROFL

Believe it or not, there is an LP record on the market of the Last Castrato - some guy who actually was born with a defect which, among other consequences, meant that his voice never changed. The recording was originally made on 78s long ago, but was then somehow transferred to an LP. I've never heard it; my friends who have tell me it's ghastly.

Incognitus

The things you learn on this place

Another wee nugget of interesting useless information to tuck away and bring out to stun folk into silence

Anhelyna - giggling like mad

Dear All,

Regarding the 'Christos Anesti', let us not forget that St. Serafim of Sarov greeted people on every single day of the year, with 'Christ is Risen'! How appropriate, therefore, to chant it at a funeral service!

Dear JPOrthodox,

As for the Bishop of Rome going to an Ecumenical Patriarch's funeral, I am SURE, and I say this with total confidence, that if Pope JPII, of thrice blessed memory were invited, he would have gone!

In Christ,
Alice, a very practicing Christian Orthodox (because I think that 'Christian' needs to preceed 'Orthodox' instead of the other way around ) and who thinks that as Christians, we Orthodox need to work on finding more good to say, and less to criticize, about our Roman Catholic brethren IN CHRIST.

"Could I imagine it? Of course. But it would take cooperation from the Orthodox. Given the degree and source of protests about the trips to Ukraine, Greece, Russia, etc., it is also easy to imagine that he would not be welcome and not invited."

Dear DJS,

The Pope would not be welcome by the few very 'vocal' individuals in the Orthodox Church. I just heard that the news media in Greece was quite upset that the Metropolitan of Russia was not at Pope John Paul II's funeral.

Zenovia

Dear JPOrthodox,

I can indeed imagine that a Pope would go to the funeral of,say, the MP... :rolleyes:

Gaudior, with tongue firmly in cheek

It's available on CD as OPAL CD 9823! The castrato in question was Alessandro Moreschi, who appears actually to have undergone the knife as a boy. The recordings were made in the first decade of the 20th Century, and Moreschi was nearing the end of his life, so it's not surprising that he might have been a bit disappointing. However, if one actually listens to his singing, aside from the wide vibrato and strange swooping ornaments (apparently the fashion of the age), one notices amazing breath control, and when he hits high notes, they're stunningly clear and pure.

BUT... back to the topic - I'm trying to figure out two things:

1) There was one cardinal who didn't stand for the Gospel, receive communion or even budge from his seat until the very end - I wonder who it was.

2) There was one fellow in the cardinal's chasuble and red skullcap, who stood with the Eastern Patriarchs during their bit. My guess is that it was Sch�nborn of Vienna, as he's Ordinary for all Byzantines in Austria.

Pity they decided to have the mass versus populum, but well, there you go.

I also wonder why there was no Dies Irae, this being a Requiem Mass...

Edward,

I thought I saw Cardinal Ratzinger, the Mass's main celebrant, standing with the Eastern hierarchs. (I'll have to check the videotape.)

No "Dies Irae," because this was a Missa Normativa (Novus Ordo Mass), not a Tridentine Mass. And, if I do say myself, an excellent example of how beautiful (and sublime) a Novus Ordo Mass can be (despite the criticism about the Sistine Choir). That seemed to be the general consensus of the secular media and even President Bush. The Roman Rite in all it's post-Vatican II glory! And again, simplicity is the hallmark of the Roman Rite: contrast the Eastern hierarchs' rich vestments (which I love) with the chasubles of the Cardinals, which were tasteful, but subdued. I may be wrong, but I believe this was something Pope John Paul II had called for in the Roman Rite. (Then again, it may have had something to do with providing 120+ chasubles).

One notable difference in liturgical practice between Rome and the American church (and probably, I'm guessing, other English-speaking churches): We tend to employ hymns at the entrance, offertory, communion, etc. rather than the antiphons. If they are good music, I kind of like the hymns....

Martin

Dear Zenovia, Yes, I am aware that there is a range of views. So, much would depend on just who would be doing the invitations.

Actually, Pope John Paul II wanted to go to Armenia for the funeral of the last Catholicos. But the Armenian Church said that while the Pope would be perfectly welcome once the new Catholicos was elected and consecrated, having the Pope come for the funeral would be rather more than they could cope with.

Metropolitan Cyril represented the Moscow Patriarchate at the Pope's funeral in Rome, so someone in the Church of Greece may have been misinformed.

Incognitus