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Is there any way then to tell the difference between a priest and a reader(not vested, but just wearing the black cassock)?

Drewmeister2,

Usually you can because a priest typically wears a pectoral cross.

-uc

Dear UC,

This is not exactly true except maybe in the Russian and Ukranian traditions. In the Greek and Antiochian traditions, the pectoral cross is an award that is given only to archpriest, igumen, protopresbyter and archimandrite. I have some colleagues that have been priests for 25 years that do not have the right to wear a pectoral cross.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

You cannot tell from their cassock, which is the same garment for all the ranks of clergy from reader to bishop!

A priest might also be wearing a riassa, a hat, a cross, ...but maybe not (as Father Anthony rightly advises!).

What about those ministries ONLY performed outside the altar?

Joe

In my Melkite parish, the reader, who has, indeed, been blessed as a reader, does not vest, nor does the cantor. Only those who serve in the holy place (clergy and altar servers) vest.

Fr. Deacon Edward

The cheirothesia (and, therefore, the imposition of the vestments) of the lector-taper bearer-chanter and of the subdeacon occur outside the hieron - which indicates that a willingness to wear the vestments in question only inside the hieron is odd, to say the least.

Incognitus

Joe,

incognitus has offered a response to your question. But to your original question regarding lay minsitry vesting, why not direct them to ask the pastor.

Jim,

the directive you mentioned may be found in the Pastoral Handbook for the Eparchy of Van Nuys, and states that grey cassock is to be worn by married clerics, i.e., priests, deacons, etc. I don't recall that married men in diaconal formation were mentioned. However, when we were accepted for diaconal formation, the letter from the Archeparchy of Pittsburgh Director of Diaconal Formation noted that we were to vest in cassock for all liturgical services, those of us from Van Nuys (all who are married) were verbally directed to were the grey cassock.

OK Father Deacon, now I am confused

I thought you were ordained for the Byzantine Catholic Eparchy of Parma, so I would assume you would follow the norms of that jurisdiction.

PS: my earlier post to which you commented upon was not directed to you... it was merely rhetorical. I am sorry it was was not clear. Of course was has me more intrigued is when you became a Doctor of Divinity.

Sorry for any confusion - I was merely mentioning the direction I received in my formation program (which was quite explicit and traditional in this regard). I have been directed to continue the same in my current Eparchy.
DD

Of course. But if I directed everything to our pastors then we wouldn't have anything to discuss here on the forums.

Joe

So, lay readers and/or chanters do not vest?

What if our eparchies permit it? Should a lay person handle the chalice without properly vesting? or are we establishing a new tradition whereas lay folks can perform the same functions as tonsured readers and subdeacons, but without all the vesting?

Joe

Now, that you brought up the institution of altar boy ...

Is the 'altar boy' a roundabout way of filling the void for the church's lack of ordaining deacons and subdeacons?

When no deacon is present at the liturgy, the priest assumes his part too.

So, we have become used to liturgies where the presbyter takes on the role of deacon and subdeacon?

Get this: not only does the priest usually bake the prosphora, he brings it to the temple, transfers the gifts, and then consecrates it.

Is this the goal - that the presbyter assumes all rites and functions?

I know this is off the topic, which was started by me, but have we become a presbyteral Mass church? Nothing happens unless the priest is there celebrating only Mass.

But back to the altar boy phenomenon.

Before the thought of lay volunteer ministers, the male altar 'boy' (never contemplating that boys grow up to be men and might wish to continue serving), it would seem to be OK to vest them in some way at the altar.

But now we have laity, both men and women, performing liturgical functions.

Should lay ministers vest for their roles OUTSIDE the altar?

Some Latin dioceses have frowned upon the deaconate simply because it will take away jobs from lay ministers.

I can direct people to our clergy for every question, but what if our clergy are the ones instituting vesting for lay ministers outside the altar with knowledge and permission of their bishop?

Do lay ministers have the RIGHT to wear vestments outside the altar? This is one argument from the laity AND our clergy.

Joe

Interesting: in the Roman Church, first the Bishop became almost unnecessary (witness the current practice which almost entirely excludes any genuinely Pontifical Mass) - many "Bishops" were only minor clerics who held the benefice and the prestige, leaving some poor monk to be the auxiliary bishop who was only allowed to do ordinations and confirmations. Then the Missa Cantata made the deacon redundant. Then the private Mass made the laity redundant.

Incognitus